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 Post subject: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Today I have solved TomZ's Multi-Dodecahedron, please see.
Surprisingly, the hardest part was solving the Megaminx. :o
The pattern recognition of the parts inside the black holes was really difficult for me.
(As we all know not much light is coming out of black holes, anyway :lol: )

I used a desk lamp and had the puzzle directly exposed to the beam of the lamp.
The shadows of the wire like structures made it impossible to see all stickers of a single face at once. I have not tried it in full daylight yet, but with my lighting many colours were really hard to distinguish e.g. the dark colours blue / green / brown were very close and the white / light yellow and orange / pink.
Maybe some other colours will be helpful. And a white interior helps for sure!

I do not want to exaggerate this and I do not want that you understand this as hard criticism, others with a better visual memory will probably have less difficulties.

It was such a relief when I came to the outer parts of the Master Pentultimate.
I turned very slowly and concentrated to avoid any screw ups.
It was a big help that I got never distracted by any catching pieces.
The turning of this complex puzzle is great and it is the first where I have not used any lubrication so far.

It worked until I had only five pieces left over.
Then I messed it up! :(

With my second try I could finish it a few hours ago.
I had many breaks to be fresh and concentrated at any move.
Most important, I applied an iron rule thet I would never make more than three setup moves. Therefore, I used many different commutators for the 60 Master Pentultimate trapezoids, which I solve in the last step.
I was very much afraid that I would mess it up and had to solve the inner pieces again.

Maybe, I'm the first who has solved it, but certainly I was not very fast.
I can only estimate my overall time and if I would not have made the terrible mistake close to the the end of my first solve, I think it was in the area of seven hours. In a sense, this puzzle was the hardest ever for me .

I'm not speaking about the principles of the solution.
Having solved the (Mini) Pentultimate and the (Mini) Starminx from TomZ more than a year ago, the puzzle does not require any new methids.
The problem is the concentration over the long time required for solving 172 pieces and feeling the danger to fall back into the black holes, if you make a tiny mistake. `Tiny` can mean unrecoverable disaster very easily :lol:

What are the experiences of others?

Scrambled and partially solved:
Image
seven `Starminx tips`to go
Image
one more 3-cycle
Image
done (you have to believe me that the hidden Megaminx is solved as well)
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Congratulations, I think this is probably the first physical solve. I have been busy with a number of other things so I haven't scrambled mine just yet. I will soon! I hope to be able to document the entire solve on video and then via some post-processing, compress the time into something watchable.

I see you solved the Starminx points last. Does that mean you used the 10-move routine to solve the corners (which affects Starminx points) and then finish off the corners with commutators? I wasn't planning on solving this way but thinking about it more, I think I'm more likely to mess up on the Pentultimate corners than on the Starminx points so doing the corners first could save time in the (nearly certain) event that I mess up.

Can you talk more about how you solved the corners? Did you place && orient one at a time? Did you place and then orient? Did you place two but orient one? I find corners so difficult that I generally place and orient just one at a time. When I'm solving via macros on Gelatinbrain I place 2 or three at a time and then orient later. I'm scared to try anything like that on a physical puzzle though.

I've done a lot of turns on mine (although no scrambling) and the puzzle has not caught once. A real testament to the fantastic designing by TomZ.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Congratulations! Solving it in 7 hours sounds pretty fast actually. I talked to Brandon earlier today and we thought it would take several days to solve it.

Next task: run a marathon and solve it at the same time!


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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:29 am 
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Yes, congratulations Konrad,
I am still waiting for a few things to assemble mine. Hopefully soon.. I am very jealous :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:46 am 
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Congratulations! That really is incredible! :shock:

I like your photos showing the different stages of the solution process as well. Very nice!

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:33 am 
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Congratulations Konrad! This is a great achievement. I can only imagine your frustration after messing it up with 5 pieces left.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:00 am 
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I'm curious about the Master Pentultimate edges. Did you solve those using Starminx type sequences or did you just solve them like Pyraminx Crystal edges?


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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:08 am 
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Thanks to all for the kind words. :)
bmenrigh wrote:
...I see you solved the Starminx points last. Does that mean you used the 10-move routine to solve the corners (which affects Starminx points) and then finish off the corners with commutators?
I guess the second `corners` should be `Starminx points`?
bmenrigh wrote:
...Can you talk more about how you solved the corners?
I placed and orientated one at a time. Safety first! :) At the end I had four that were placed but needed orientation. I have no special move sequence for this. I just displaced them again and brought them back correctly orientated.
I used the 10 move sequence most of the time, because I was used to it from my former Pentultimate solve and lately solving the Starminx tips. (For people who do not know what I am referring to: Brandon had detected a 10 move sequence to solve Pentultimate corners. We discussed it in the Starminx solution thread.) Very rarely I used a 14 move commutator [6,1] I have got from Elwyn. I know a 2-2 swap of corners in 12 moves. Before I detected the 10 move sequence in the Gelatinbrain thread I used it to construct 3-cycles of corners. I have never used them since then.
As I have said, I avoided more than three setup moves in any phase, so I looked always around for a `safe` setup situation. The same is true for the Starminx points.
I tried to avoid any restart by being always on the safe side. Still, I messed it up close to the end by making a mistake in a sequence I am very familiar with. I tried to reverse the sequence to a point where I thought my mistake had happened. But this made the situation hopeless and I was back at the Megaminx part :(
I thought that the order corners first is better, because of two reasons
- I could use the impure 10 move sequence (some Starminx points are affected by it) and I'm pretty familiar with it
- The danger of messing the puzzle up seemed lower for the 60 Starminx points than for the 30 corners. So I postponed a larger effort towards the end.
bmenrigh wrote:
...I've done a lot of turns on mine (although no scrambling) and the puzzle has not caught once. A real testament to the fantastic designing by TomZ.
Yeah, it is amazing. :D I think that your advice is good to tighten the screws. When I assembled it the last time I made the screws a bit too loose. I got some tiny catches, but nothing disturbing my concentration.
It is wonderful that you can trust this puzzle completely , it never pops, it never catches really.

If I disassemble it ever again, I'll tighten the screws.
schuma wrote:
Congratulations! Solving it in 7 hours sounds pretty fast actually. I talked to Brandon earlier today and we thought it would take several days to solve it...
Actually, I estimated the seven hours for the theoretical case that I would NOT have messed up my first solving, five Starminx points short to the final state. The next approach needed a similar time. So altogether I'm estimating 13 to 15 hours turning time! And yes, I needed three days elapsed time, because I allowed myself (and my family :lol: ) many breaks.
77mouser wrote:
I'm curious about the Master Pentultimate edges. Did you solve those using Starminx type sequences or did you just solve them like Pyraminx Crystal edges?
I used [1,1] commutators as for solving Pyraminx Crystal edges.
My outline
1. Inner Megaminx
2. Pyraminx Crystal edges (I do not know a `pure` commutator for them; therefore it seemed the best to me to solve them in the second step)
3. Outer centres (as on a Pentualtimate / Starminx)
4. Outer corners (as on a Pentultimate)
5. Starminx points (= Master Pentultimate trapezoids) with several different commutators

EDIT: bmenrigh and shuma, I'm looking forward to your video. It will be almost impossible to show much of the Megaminx part.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:13 pm 
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I haven't solved the MD yet but I figure I better not wait too long to post an update.

This last Saturday Nan Ma (forum member schuma) and I met up to hang out, check out the MD, and solve puzzles.

We scrambled the puzzle on video and then I took about 3 hours of video of me solving various stages of it. The inner Megaminx took me a bit more than an hour to solve because I made a few mistakes on it, it was hard to see, and also, on a Megaminx I tend to make up commutators on the fly. Unfortunately I'm so rusty at the Megaminx and I usually undo the last several moves of the commutator visually that this did not work out very well. I had to use a normal Megaminx to practice on a bit between various steps on the Super-Megaminx inside of my MD.

The Pyraminx Crystal edges went pretty smoothly. Permuting the Master Pentultimate centers also went smoothly. After I cycled all of them I then fixed all of their orientations.

Tonight I started solving the Starminx Points. Having super stickers on them makes them quite hard to setup. On a computer I solve them 2 at a time and I don't solve face-by-face. Physically I'm finding 1 at a time and face-by-face is much more reasonable.

I now have the points on 3 faces solved. I also have another 3 points on the 4th face solved and a few points on other faces solved.

I totally didn't estimate time right for this solve. I thought if everything went smoothly it would be about 2.5 hours and my 8-hour estimate was factoring in mistakes that cause me to start over. In reality it's about a 6-8 hour solve with no mistakes. Most mistakes meant starting over. Only with a TON of practice could the solve be brought down to 2 hours (without mistakes).

I'm having a great time :D

Edit: Now I have the points on 6 faces solved. Now it's bedtime.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:21 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
...Tonight I started solving the Starminx Points. Having super stickers on them makes them quite hard to setup.
Yeah, the Super stickers make a hard solve quite a bit harder. You are leaving the Pentultimate corners for the last step. You must be pretty confident that you can avoid catastrophic mistakes in this last step. I did the corners first because this flock is twenty only while the Starminx Points are 60.
bmenrigh wrote:
On a computer I solve them 2 at a time and I don't solve face-by-face. Physically I'm finding 1 at a time and face-by-face is much more reasonable.
I did not solve them face by face, because I looked for the least dangeous setup sequence.
bmenrigh wrote:
I totally didn't estimate time right for this solve. I thought if everything went smoothly it would be about 2.5 hours and my 8-hour estimate was factoring in mistakes that cause me to start over. In reality it's about a 6-8 hour solve with no mistakes.
So, if I had had more luck close to the end of my first solve (five Starminx points to go) my time would not be so bad after all. But that was without Super stickers! :roll:
I had a few catastrophic failures when solving the Megaminx. The second time this was much better. On the outside pieces I made this one catastrophic failure only.

Good luck for your further progress.

Is nobody else out there solving it? I know somebody who is desperately waiting for screws, springs and washers :wink: May they arrive soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I'm breaking it in now, currently awaiting stickers. I hope to try and get a solve in soon!


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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
...Tonight I started solving the Starminx Points. Having super stickers on them makes them quite hard to setup.
Yeah, the Super stickers make a hard solve quite a bit harder. You are leaving the Pentultimate corners for the last step. You must be pretty confident that you can avoid catastrophic mistakes in this last step. I did the corners first because this flock is twenty only while the Starminx Points are 60.
Before I started the points I thought I had about a 50/50 chance of screwing up on the points and probably a 50/50 chance of screwing up on the corners. I decided to solve points first because 1) I like solving most shallow to most deep and 2) I'm videoing the solve and I want the puzzle to look more solved before I screw up. I think visually the points make the puzzle look more solved than the corners do. I think your corner and then point strategy is actually superior because the corners are easier without the points getting in the way.
Konrad wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
On a computer I solve them 2 at a time and I don't solve face-by-face. Physically I'm finding 1 at a time and face-by-face is much more reasonable.
I did not solve them face by face, because I looked for the least dangeous setup sequence.
I started out that way too but with the super stickers it's quite hard to tell if a point is solved or not. By solving face-by-face I can look at a white point and know it's already solved so I better not break it. Making the determination about whether a point was solved by paying attention to the additional two color markers was proving to be too difficult.

Konrad wrote:
So, if I had had more luck close to the end of my first solve (five Starminx points to go) my time would not be so bad after all. But that was without Super stickers! :roll:
Yeah I think your 7-8 hours before screwing up would have been a good time. I'm very glad I got super stickers though. It has always bugged me that on most of my other puzzles I've never truly returned them to their original state because I can't see what that state is. Even on my Super Eastsheen 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 the inner parts aren't restored even when the outer parts are. Something about that drives me crazy :oops: Finally I have a complex puzzle that every part will be fully restored when I'm done.
Konrad wrote:
I had a few catastrophic failures when solving the Megaminx. The second time this was much better. On the outside pieces I made this one catastrophic failure only.
I made several minor mistakes on the Super-Megaminx but nothing that caused me to have to start over. I was very cautious on it though which accounts for a large amount of the time it took me.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:48 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I'm very glad I got super stickers though. It has always bugged me that on most of my other puzzles I've never truly returned them to their original state because I can't see what that state is. Even on my Super Eastsheen 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 the inner parts aren't restored even when the outer parts are. Something about that drives me crazy.
I think this is a disorder specific to puzzle solvers, I too have had the same maddening thoughts :shock: . But sometimes the pieces not having specific places creates a different difficulty, like in the Shepherd’s Cube that you pointed out.. and the Master Kilominx.. if you went around and solved it as a Gigaminx, because of some random familiar overwhelming compulsion, you would miss the point of the puzzle, or never actually solve `that puzzle`. (So you can see I struggle between these 2 compulsions).

bmenrigh wrote:
The Megaminx centers have the orientation markers too. This makes the solve slightly easier because the total twist of the Megaminx centers is tied to the total twist of the Pentultimate centers. By fixing the twist in the Megaminx phase you fix the total twist of the Pentultimate phase.
I was thinking about what you said here.. and it's very interesting. I might sticker mine with a combination of Standard Megaminx stickers and Super Masterpentultimate stickers. I have no real desire to solve the Super Megaminx, especially visually, and I think it might provide an interesting solve..

Thoughts?
Would I have to solve the Masterpentultimate Centres first and then solve the Megaminx without disrupting centre orientation (`as` Super)?

Cheers,
Burgo.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Well I screwed up :(

I resumed solving the points and solved an additional 2 faces for a total of 8 solved. In the process of solving the 9th face I messed up.

I came up with the setup moves to cycle a point into place and when I did the setup moves something didn't look right so I tried to undo them to make sure I had things right. I think in the process of doing the setup moves my thumb came off of the place I was trying to keep it and so when I tried to undo the moves I was undoing them in the wrong orientation. I spend a few minutes being very careful trying to figure out what I'd done wrong by looking at the inner Megaminx but it didn't matter, I wasn't able to back out.

My inner super-Megaminx is nearly solved but naturally due to the deep-cut nature of the outer master-Pentultimate, it looks a lot worse.

On a computer I'd be hitting undo a few times. Physically it looks like I have another 4 hours of solving to get back to where I was.

Note to self: DON'T DO SLICE SETUP MOVES! Visually they are much harder to undo than regular moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Brandon, since messing up seems to be part of this puzzle, now you've got the full experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:14 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Brandon, since messing up seems to be part of this puzzle, now you've got the full experience.
Somebody has mentioned in the `puzzle of the year 2011` thread that the Multi-D is nice but too difficult and at the same time has assigned Gold to Oskar's 17x17x17. (I could not find this post anymore)
What is harder, solving 172 pieces or 1532? :lol:
Probably it is much harder to mess up the 17x17x17, but 1344 centre pieces are a big flock.
I assume that the timer will run a lot longer for the 17x17 than for the Multi-D. :lol:
In any case, solvingwise I find the Multi-D much more interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
schuma wrote:
Brandon, since messing up seems to be part of this puzzle, now you've got the full experience.
Somebody has mentioned in the `puzzle of the year 2011` thread that the Multi-D is nice but too difficult and at the same time has assigned Gold to Oskar's 17x17x17. (I could not find this post anymore)
What is harder, solving 172 pieces or 1532? :lol:
Probably it is much harder to mess up the 17x17x17, but 1344 centre pieces are a big flock.
I assume that the timer will run a lot longer for the 17x17 than for the Multi-D. :lol:
In any case, solvingwise I find the Multi-D much more interesting.


Regarding solving the MD and messing up, I can't complain. I wanted this challenge :D

Regarding the "difficulty" of the MD versus the 17x17x17 versus the Royal Pentultimate and other huge puzzles... I don't think you can compare the difficulty in the same way. With the higher order puzzles like the Royal pent, 17^3, etc, you solve them via reduction. With reduction, even when you screw up the damage is contained to a small area. You don't have to tread very carefully when solving a puzzle via reduction because mistakes only set you back a few minutes, not a few hours. Once groups of pieces are formed you don't have to worry much about them being broken.

For this reason, a puzzle like 1.1.39 would be physically solvable via reduction (to a Pyraminx Crystal) but really not very solvable cycling piece-by-piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
I assume that the timer will run a lot longer for the 17x17 than for the Multi-D. :lol:
In any case, solvingwise I find the Multi-D much more interesting.

Well it now appears several have solved the Multidodecahedron. Has anyone even yet done a full scrable of a 17x17x17? Let alone a solve? I'm talking about the 3D printed puzzles so don't point me to a 17x17x17 solve in a simulator.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:36 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
...Well it now appears several have solved the Multidodecahedron. ...

Several? As it appears not many have got the full material. Some miss the stickers, some the screws.
As far as it is posted here, Brandon is in the middle of solve number two :)

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Several? As it appears not many have got the full material. Some miss the stickers, some the screws.
As far as it is posted here, Brandon is in the middle of solve number two :)
Ok... replace several with at least one. The point still stands. Has anyone even done a full scramble of a 17x17x17?

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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:42 am 
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Hi Friends,

Recently I finished building my Multidodecahedron and began my first solve:

1. The first night I solved the Inner Megaminx. I found that quite a task, especially to get used to twisting the Master Pentultimate parts over the Megaminx, and recognition is very difficult due to looking inside the small windows.

2. The next day I solved the Pyraminx Chrystal Edges (I’m on holidays). I found this part not too difficult, but the undos were where you had to concentrate. I usually use a very particular (almost layers type) strategy for the PC edges that I think really helped for this part because it reduced setup/undos. (I actually made a mistake in this step and had to begin the Megaminx again which is very frustrating).

3. The Centres were no trouble, I used a simple (4,1) commutator.

4. Solving all of the Starminx Points was a big task. I haven't solved a normal Pentultimate so I find it difficult to make a comparison(in the sense that the Pyraminx Crystal edges are very small visually- compared to a FT Starminx), but I think in this step the inner Megaminx was very useful as an added visual cue to undoing setups, so earlier in the solve it adds difficuly, but now it is becoming easier with it I think.

I used my Sune commutator method (I have tried the standard commutator method also) but I really recommend using Sune.. it seriously helped with concentration, setups and visual cues. It helped with orientation too because you can hold the puzzle with one hand and twist with the other and you don’t lose your place as easily (I actually found this to be a big factor with the deep cuts).

It uses more moves, but they’re fast to perform, and I found that I didn’t have to remember many moves when undoing setups. I placed 2 pieces almost every time using it. It would make a huge difference to the puzzle using super stickers and in that case it would be difficult to target 2 at a time.

5. This morning I solved the Corners (I have been taking my time and taking breaks).The corners were a bit tougher because they have an orientation and I was becoming a little nervous not to mess things up. I was able to use the same Sune commutator, except I used a D twist instead of a DW twist.

I probably averaged 1 at a time, often placing 2 in a sequence, but I sometimes used setup sequences to position or orientate groups. In this stage the amount of other solved pieces was very helpful visually, but I still kept to minimal setup moves and I found it helpful to target a particular U face in the beginning. In other words: to complete all 5 corners on that face- setting up orientated corners to the E slice with the setups (instead of placing and orientating them at the same time).


Sune Commutator:

I want to give some insight into how easy the Sune Commutator I use is to apply so I made a diagram. You can use exactly the same technique for corners, except you do D twists instead of DW twists and concern yourself with orientation.

A Locate a piece in the U layer that has a target position in any of the 5 positions on the slice layer below it. You can identify all of them in one glance by looking down on the U layer.

B Identify either a piece that will go into the U layer OR a 2nd Target Position for the piece in the Initial Target Position. If it’s already on the E slice, great, if not make sure that it will easily go into the E slice with 1 or possibly 2 `setup twists`.

You really only need to remember the 2nd setup twist here (the first one to undo) this is only `helpful`, you can figure it out if you forget. The rest you can realign with visual cues from the inner megaminx and Pyraminx Crystal Edges. I usually try to perform these 1 or 2 setup twists first, so that they are the last things to undo.

C Performing the sequence:
*After the setup twists line up the Target piece in the U layer with the Target position in the E slice with DW twists (refer back to diagram A).
*Do a Sune to place it.
*Relocate the U layer with DW twists to your next position which is either of the Blue or Green highlighted situations (diagram C).
*Perform Sune Mirrored
*Relocate the U layer to the initial position with DW twists to begin undoing the 1 or possibly 2 setups. The inner Megaminx and the Pyraminx edges can be used to make the alignment. The best thing about this is all of the visual cues along the way making it easier to keep track.

The other advantage is that a normal commutator leaves no evidence of it’s application on the inner Megaminx (because the R&L twists cancel themselves out), whereas the Sune leaves the distinct Sune pattern on the inner U layer (this is another visual cue to undo it).

I imagine if you were really cluey, you could solve some corners at the same time as the Starminx Points with this method.

Cheers,
Burgo.


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MD Sune.jpg
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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)
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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
Location: Germany, Bavaria
Congratulations Burgo! :D :D
I'll try your Sune method on the FT Starminx when I revisit it the next time, for now I'm too anxious to scramble the MD again.
What about your Superstickers?

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My collection at: http://sites.google.com/site/twistykon/home


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 Post subject: Re: Solving TomZ's Multidodecahedron
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:01 am 
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Location: Australia
Thanks Konrad,
I still have the super stickers, but I just decided to use the standard ones first.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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