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 Post subject: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Following my oversight here regarding the Latch Cube, I was wondering if there are any twisty puzzles which have truly irreversible moves that lead to potential permutation traps, so that the puzzle becomes completely insolvable, or whether such a puzzle could be designed. Any thoughts?

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Last edited by KelvinS on Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Constrained Cube + Latch cube will result in a puzzle that, if turned incorrectly, will remain quite literally unsolvable without disassembly. Not sure why anyone would want to do that, though...

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Well, taking Okamoto's Latch Cube and my Constrained Cube, you could make a Latch Constrained Cube.
It's a shame my design doesn't have the notches in the centers, but if I added those the parts would be fully compatible.
It could get you in to funny situations, really quickly. I guess that having even one or two latched edges would turn it in to a puzzle nightmare.

It's funny, I actually designed the Constrained Cube having asked myself the exact same question: can you make an unsolvable puzzle?

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Last edited by TomZ on Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Monopoly wrote:
Not sure why anyone would want to do that, though...
Well imagine the danger and thus "excitement" of trying to solve it without falling into one of these permutation traps! The puzzle would become completely useless and you'd have to buy another (which would also be good for sales). And yes, I'm evil. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:28 pm 
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I too have thought about this a bit, and I facepalmed when I realized how simple the answer was (Latch + Constrained cube). Is it that easy, though? Can you switch the centers on a latch cube?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Well, damn. Turns out Okamoto decided that 57mm wasn't good enough for him. No, he needed to make his Latch Cube 56.4mm. If anyone is seriously interested, I can of course change the Constrained Cube design to accommodate Latch Cube parts, but unfortunately they're not directly compatible. But it looks so close on first glance.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Dunno why, but it reminds me of the Revomaze. Like the Revomaze, it seems like you'd want to build a mechanism to "reset" back to a scrambled state. Having to take the cube apart to "reset" is just evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:30 pm 
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Well if you can get the puzzle into a state where it can't turn, in theory you would be able to get it out of that state by just undoing the moves you did to get it there. Right?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:52 pm 
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c1829 wrote:
Well if you can get the puzzle into a state where it can't turn, in theory you would be able to get it out of that state by just undoing the moves you did to get it there. Right?

No, the whole point of this is that some moves would be irreversible while others are blocked (see thread title), so in some cases they may lead to dead ends that you can't get back from. I'm not even sure I like the idea that you could disassemble it or reset it once it's locked: it should become completely and permanently useless so that you have to throw it away and get a new one, to really add the danger, excitement and frustration. As I said, this is intentionally supposed to be a really evil idea. In fact, let's make it a Constrained Latch Crazy Gear Qubami. :twisted: 8-)

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Last edited by KelvinS on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:07 pm 
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Oh, okay, I understand now.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:37 pm 
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I think this puzzle should be sold scrambled, making each puzzle unique like the qubami. A cash prize (or a coupon) could be givin to those that solve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
I'm not even sure I like the idea that you could disassemble it or reset it once it's locked: it should become completely and permanently useless so that you have to throw it away and get a new one, to really add the danger, excitement and frustration.
Each puzzle could ship with a cyanide tablet that is released if you make a wrong move. This would have the added benefit of reducing or eliminating the number of complainers saying the puzzle is too hard to solve.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:47 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Each puzzle could ship with a cyanide tablet that is released if you make a wrong move. This would have the added benefit of reducing or eliminating the number of complainers saying the puzzle is too hard to solve.

Ooh, I like that :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:47 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
I think this puzzle should be sold scrambled, making each puzzle unique like the qubami. A cash prize (or a coupon) could be givin to those that solve it.


I completely agree with this, for if the puzzle was sold in the solved state, it could be scrambled and put into an irreversible position while scrambling, making it impossible even before you begin solving.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:39 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Kelvin Stott wrote:
I'm not even sure I like the idea that you could disassemble it or reset it once it's locked: it should become completely and permanently useless so that you have to throw it away and get a new one, to really add the danger, excitement and frustration.
Each puzzle could ship with a cyanide tablet that is released if you make a wrong move. This would have the added benefit of reducing or eliminating the number of complainers saying the puzzle is too hard to solve.
Maybe a little bit TOO much danger, excitement and frustration .. and death. :shock: There could be one or two legal issues with that one. :lol:

cjgerik wrote:
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
I think this puzzle should be sold scrambled, making each puzzle unique like the qubami. A cash prize (or a coupon) could be givin to those that solve it.
I completely agree with this, for if the puzzle was sold in the solved state, it could be scrambled and put into an irreversible position while scrambling, making it impossible even before you begin solving.
Actually that's a good point I hadn't considered, but selling it scrambled would look messy (second hand, unattractive) and people might doubt that solving it is even possible. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:05 am 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
In fact, let's make it a Constrained Latch Crazy Gear Qubami. :twisted: 8-)

There's only one word for that: completely impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
c1829 wrote:
Well if you can get the puzzle into a state where it can't turn, in theory you would be able to get it out of that state by just undoing the moves you did to get it there. Right?

No, the whole point of this is that some moves would be irreversible while others are blocked (see thread title), so in some cases they may lead to dead ends that you can't get back from. I'm not even sure I like the idea that you could disassemble it or reset it once it's locked: it should become completely and permanently useless so that you have to throw it away and get a new one, to really add the danger, excitement and frustration. As I said, this is intentionally supposed to be a really evil idea. In fact, let's make it a Constrained Latch Crazy Gear Qubami. :twisted: 8-)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are cracking me up this whole bold written part of your post is killing me! This is so funny! This puzzle must exist.
Btw what happens when you get stuck by only scrambling it already after taking it out of the box the first time? :lol: xDDD
You would probably have to go nuts and scream and punch into the wall and all.

I also think a puzzle like that should exist in a limited amount and all them should be continuously numbered. That way one day all will be broken. Unless some Super-Solver unravels the mystery and will be ultimately legend for owning the last couple that are solved.
Or just until some are left and will never be scrambled again. To be given to a museum or traded at high values.

... until YOU, Kelvin will get your hands on one and send forth chaos and frustration to the collectors. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:21 pm 
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If you designed the Latch Constrained Cube correctly, it could become forever scrambled with just one move! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:34 pm 
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It would be really funny to sell it in a state just one move away from being solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:05 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
It would be really funny to sell it in a state just one move away from being solved.


:lol: :lol:

Get it right the first time or never. xD
I once bought my first Skewb cube. My cousin (7 years old back than) was more excited than me and took it from me when I bearly had the package opened. I said something like: "You know, this turns diagonally and is hard to predict when you are unexperienced so don't..."
And he had turned it 2 times already by saying something like: "Don't worry, I am only going to do 2 moves I can get those back..."
Ups. scrambled.

I would not want that to happen with such a puzzle. :lol: I would open the box when I am locked in my room and I would ponder for 3 days and 3 nights to be sure to pick the right move. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:10 pm 
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I don't like this, this whole thing is getting just too evil :lol:

I've thought of something that's not exactly quite like this but here it goes.

Step 1: Get lots of money in cash in $100 increments
Step 2: Buy the new Rubik's money bank
Step 3: Stuff as much money into it
Step 4: Remove stickers
Step 5: give it a thorough scrambling. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:22 pm 
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6. with the remaining money you have, buy a sledge hammer or some other smashing/cutting object.
7. smash cube, obtain money.

I have had this other idea, similar to latch cube. On the latch cube, the two 'clips' on the edge pieces face in opposite directions, giving the piece rotational symmetry. What if we made edge pieces with clips that face in the same direction, giving it reflexive symmetry? Edge pieces with only one clip? Although I don't think it would be reasonable to have all the edges this way, if we made a puzzle with any combination of normal, reflexive, half and non-latch edge pieces? Even without removing the arrows the puzzle would probably still be difficult to solve, because it would be 'bandaged', almost, in a sense. Kind of like a bandaged cube with mobile connections. I think this might even be able to be made by hand, but I don't own a latch cube and am unfamiliar with the structure of the edges. (Anyone want to post some disassembled pictures?)

Also I believe we should give a new name to this class of puzzles. After all, they're not really bandaged, yet they are certainly not traditionally rotating puzzles either. (the Constrained cube would also be contained in this category, as long as the Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx + series.)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:32 pm 
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A practical and mechanically inclined(rather than logically inclined) person would insist the easiest way to solve it would be to disassemble it and reassemble it. :D

Although that can be argued for most twisty puzzles. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:05 am 
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EMarx wrote:
A practical and mechanically inclined(rather than logically inclined) person would insist the easiest way to solve it would be to disassemble it and reassemble it. :D
I was thinking that the puzzle should be made so that it can't be disassembled (e.g., with permanent rivets or one-way screws, rather than removable two-way screws).

TomZ wrote:
It would be really funny to sell it in a state just one move away from being solved.
That would be hilarious - just one quarter turn away from the solved state, but the move is blocked so that you have to solve it via an indirect route without falling into a permutation trap that would permanently lock the cube and render it completely useless and insolvable! :lol:

This would also get round the issue of having to scramble it first and accidentally locking it before you even try to solve it, or selling it in an unattractive pre-scrambled state that would make it look second hand or potentially insolvable. Great idea! :D

alaskajoe wrote:
I also think a puzzle like that should exist in a limited amount and all them should be continuously numbered. That way one day all will be broken. Unless some Super-Solver unravels the mystery and will be ultimately legend for owning the last couple that are solved.
That's also a nice idea, I like it. :D

Monopoly wrote:
Also I believe we should give a new name to this class of puzzles.
Tom suggested "Trap Cube", which I think is brilliant. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:54 pm 
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I think you should have a cube thats a quarter turn one way away from being solved with arrows the other and if you get a quarter turn away on the other side it gets stuck forever


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:01 pm 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
Following my oversight here regarding the Latch Cube, I was wondering if there are any twisty puzzles which have truly irreversible moves that lead to potential permutation traps, so that the puzzle becomes completely insolvable, or whether such a puzzle could be designed. Any thoughts?

In the Latch Cube is possible to do irreversible moves, so that the pieces get stuck and there's no way to solve 'em?
I'm still waiting to receive mine, but watching the videos and thinking to how it works it seems to me that all the moves can be reversed in a way or in another...

bmenrigh wrote:
Kelvin Stott wrote:
It should become completely and permanently useless so that you have to throw it away and get a new one, to really add the danger, excitement and frustration. As I said, this is intentionally supposed to be a really evil idea. In fact, let's make it a Constrained Latch Crazy Gear Qubami. :twisted: 8-)
Each puzzle could ship with a cyanide tablet that is released if you make a wrong move. This would have the added benefit of reducing or eliminating the number of complainers saying the puzzle is too hard to solve.

AHAHAHAHAHAH, it really is an evil idea, I'm still laughing :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:06 pm 
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All moves on the latch cube can be reversed. On a standard BOY color scheme, rotating the white face can either bandage the red, orange, blue, or green faces, however you can't bandage the white face.

Since you can't bandage the face you are currently rotating, you can't end in an impossible permutation.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzles with irreversible moves and permutation traps
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:09 pm 
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That's a very clear explanation, thank you :)

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