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reeeech

Post subject: Russian Refuses to Accept Math Prize Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm

To Pantazis and to the other mathematicians...
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... 460&page=1
What is this Theorema bout the nature of multidimensional space that has stumped people for 100 years?
How did he solve it? Where can you see this? Ugh, I hate when news articles don't go into detail, they just make it a 'story' and don't give the actual details
They do mention this ABC News wrote: The riddle Perelman tackled is called the Poincare conjecture, which essentially says that in three dimensions, a doughnut shape cannot be transformed into a sphere without ripping it, although any shape without a hole can be stretched or shrunk into a sphere.
But how did he prove that?
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David Calvo

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:25 pm Location: MadridSpain

Maybe he has contacted with Homer Simpson, cause he's expert about the doughnuts....... :):):)
I am also quite shocked about the new...... How can he prove it? Well, I have to say that I cannot understand perfectly the Poincare conjeture......
It says that a doughnut shape can't be converted to a sphere while other without holes yes? But they are talking about withouth changing their propertys? Without changing their gravity centers or what? Really cannot understand it.......
_________________ Life is like a Rubik's Cube.... it always has a solution.


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kastellorizo

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:31 am Location: Greece, Australia, Thailand, India, Singapore.

Well... this guy was rejected from taking a university math job long time ago, then he dedicated the last ten years in proving Poincare's Conjecture.
They say he lives in a humble home surviving with his mother's pension. Currently he is jobless, but maybe not for long!
Not accepting the prize, made him one of my idols.
Just when you think materialism has taken over this world, a fine example like this prevails. A few days ago, he said that the reason he does not accept the prize, is because he was only interested in solving the problem and nothing else!
He is such a pure (regarding his character) pure (regarding the math field) mathematician!!!
Some references in mathworld (a very nice site regarding math stuff)
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/news/20030415/poincare/
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PoincareConjecture.html
Pantazis
PS The article pretty much explains the problem: "in three dimensions, a doughnut shape cannot be transformed into a sphere without ripping it, although any shape without a hole can be stretched or shrunk into a sphere". Like saying that in topology, a doughnut is exactly the same thing with a tea cup that has a handle!
Regarding the proof now.... it may take a while to explain!
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reeeech

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm

thanks for the replies
but YES... what is this proof?
I can easily say, yeah, just fold space together and bam! easy travel to the next galaxy.
sure I came up with that theorem. now where's my prize? lol
What I'm getting out, is how the heck can he prove that it won't rip, or will?
What kind of equipment do you have to prove/test that theory out?
i agree Pantazis. math/science shouldn't be dealt with by giving out $$$/awards. it's about our human knowledge; our drive to learn and expand on our brains and what we can think of and carry out.
but it does help winning the $$$ when it can help you back and put more funding into your research. i'll admit that stuff ain't cheap. not that i know first hand.
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kastellorizo

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:31 am Location: Greece, Australia, Thailand, India, Singapore.

reeeech wrote: thanks for the replies but YES... what is this proof? I can easily say, yeah, just fold space together and bam! easy travel to the next galaxy. sure I came up with that theorem. now where's my prize? lol What I'm getting out, is how the heck can he prove that it won't rip, or will? What kind of equipment do you have to prove/test that theory out? No equipment (besides a few heavy books) is needed. We are talking about generic and theoretical stuff here. A few axioms, a few definitions, and a lot of theorems with their proofs. And I can't say I have read anything that he has, because I am no expert in topology, as I expect he has not read much of Algebraic Graph Theory LOL (that was the topic of my thesis) Imagine now, he is a top mind and spent ten whole years! I am pretty sure that for me to understand his proofs I would have to read a lot more "basic" stuff! reeeech wrote: i agree Pantazis. math/science shouldn't be dealt with by giving out $$$/awards. it's about our human knowledge; our drive to learn and expand on our brains and what we can think of and carry out. but it does help winning the $$$ when it can help you back and put more funding into your research. i'll admit that stuff ain't cheap. not that i know first hand.
For me money is secondary stuff, sometimes even knowledge. But all can exist in harmony as long as we are happy!
Pantazis
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David Calvo

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:25 pm Location: MadridSpain

reeeech wrote: What I'm getting out, is how the heck can he prove that it won't rip, or will?
What kind of equipment do you have to prove/test that theory out?
I think that those kind of demonstrations are purely mathematicians no?
So he only needed a hundreds of pieces of papers, a few pens and a lot of imaginations, and of course, amazing maths skills no?
Just my theory. I am not mathematician, of course. But the topology studies the changes of the elements when deforming without changing their properties. So he studied mathematically the transformation from a doughnut to a sphere (dunno what kind of math operators does he use...) and looked if the new elements keep the original properties.......
Well...... as I have said, I am talking WITHOUT having any idea and inventing that.........
_________________ Life is like a Rubik's Cube.... it always has a solution.


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away

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:00 pm

kastellorizo wrote: A few days ago, he said that the reason he does not accept the prize, is because he was only interested in solving the problem and nothing else!
If that is true, why does he bother to publish papers about it? Plus, your idol could at least give the prize money to charity.


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reeeech

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm

Well by no means am I doubting his finds or saying that it's not true. Yes, I know he may have something considering he took 10 years of his life to prove it.
I just wish they could put it in laymen's terms for all
I've always been into Astronomy/Physics/Quantium mechanics. I just want to be able to understand his finds more thoroughly. I guess I'm just still at the PreBasic stage
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kastellorizo

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:17 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:31 am Location: Greece, Australia, Thailand, India, Singapore.

StefanPochmann wrote: If that is true, why does he bother to publish papers about it? Actually, this is the best part. He didn't publish the particular proof in a journal. He placed it online "for anyone interested". StefanPochmann wrote: Plus, your idol could at least give the prize money to charity.
Well... different people will do different things (in a hypothetical situation, I would probably do exactly what you said, but too bad it will remain a hypothesis...).
And I believe that living in a topological world is not a bad thing!
Pantazis
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skeneegee

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:31 pm Location: Arvada, CO

I think he should take the money. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
I think it's great that prizes are offered to encourage people to make discoveries to further mankinds understanding of science. Although I have no clue how this "Poincare conjecture" could affect my life, I have no doubt that someone has something in mind or soon will.
Keep it up superbrainiacs! I want a hover skateboard like in "Back to the Future II" already!
_________________ "It's like an alarm clock, WOO WOO" Bubb Rubb


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reeeech

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm

Poincaré Conjecture
In its original form, the Poincaré conjecture states that every simply connected closed threemanifold is homeomorphic to the threesphere (in a topologist's sense) S^3, where a threesphere is simply a generalization of the usual sphere to one dimension higher. More colloquially, the conjecture says that the threesphere is the only type of bounded threedimensional space possible that contains no holes. This conjecture was first proposed in 1904 by H. Poincaré Eric Weisstein's World of Biography (Poincaré 1953, pp. 486 and 498), and subsequently generalized to the conjecture that every compact nmanifold is homotopyequivalent to the nsphere iff it is homeomorphic to the nsphere. The generalized statement reduces to the original conjecture for n==3.
The Poincaré conjecture has proved a thorny problem ever since it was first proposed, and its study has led not only to many false proofs, but also to a deepening in the understanding of the topology of manifolds (Milnor). One of the first incorrect proofs was due to Poincaré himself (1953, p. 370), stated four years prior to formulation of his conjecture, and to which Poincaré subsequently found a counterexample. In 1934, Whitehead (1962, pp. 2150) proposed another incorrect proof, then discovered a counterexample (the Whitehead link) to his own theorem.
The n==1 case of the generalized conjecture is trivial, the n==2 case is classical (and was known to 19th century mathematicians), n==3 (the original conjecture) appears to have been proved by recent work by G. Perelman (although the proof has not yet been fully verified), n==4 was proved by Freedman (1982) (for which he was awarded the 1986 Fields medal), n==5 was demonstrated by Zeeman (1961), n==6 was established by Stallings (1962), and n>=7 was shown by Smale in 1961 (although Smale subsequently extended his proof to include all n>=5).
The Clay Mathematics Institute included the conjecture on its list of $1 million prize problems. In April 2002, M. J. Dunwoody produced a fivepage paper that purports to prove the conjecture. However, Dunwoody's manuscript was quickly found to be fundamentally flawed (Weisstein 2002). A much more promising result has been reported by Perelman (2002, 2003; Robinson 2003). Perelman's work appears to establish a more general result known as the Thurston's geometrization conjecture, from which the Poincaré conjecture immediately follows (Weisstein 2003). Mathematicians familiar with Perelman's work describe it as well thoughtout and expect that it will be difficult to locate any substantial mistakes (Robinson 2003, Collins 2004). In fact, Collins (2004) goes so far as to state, "everyone expects [that] Perelman's proof is correct."
The definition of topology leads to the following mathematical joke (Renteln and Dundes 2005):
Q: What is a topologist?
A: Someone who cannot distinguish between a doughnut and a coffee cup.
HAHAHA that's a good one
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away

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:23 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:00 pm

reeeech wrote: Q: What is a topologist? A: Someone who cannot distinguish between a doughnut and a coffee cup. HAHAHA that's a good one
That's probably for the topologist what "I always peeled the stickers off" is for cubers...


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Bernardo_Abrego

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:23 pm Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA

Hi guys,
I also learned from some people at the International Congress of Mathematics that Perelman will refuse the Fields medal as well. (It is the equivalent of the Nobel prize for Mathematics, only it is only given every four years and you have to be 40 or younger to get it).
Bernardo


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reeeech

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm

hmm another article explains it pretty well...
[quote="Centuryold braintwister now solved"][/quote]
MADRID, Spain  The Poincare conjecture involves topology, a branch of math that studies shapes.
It essentially says that in three dimensions you cannot transform a doughnut shape into a sphere without ripping it, although any shape without a hole can be stretched or shrunk into a sphere.
There is a catch: the space has to be finite. Imagine an ant crawling on an apple in a straight line. It can only walk so far before it's back where it started.
Even though the apple has three dimensions, its surface is twodimensional. The ant can walk backward, forward and sideways on the surface but not up and down. In three dimensions, shapes are harder to determine because people cannot directly 'see' them and there are many more possible types of holes.
The conjecture is named for French mathematician and physicist Henri Poincare, who proposed it in 1904.
An analogous conjecture was proved for spaces of more than three dimensions over 20 years ago. But the specific 3D case flummoxed mathematicians for years.
In 1982, Columbia University's Richard Hamilton developed a technique called Ricci flow that mathematically ironed out wrinkles in 3D surfaces and provided a blueprint for cracking the Poincare conundrum.
A problem was posed by puzzling, dense spots called singularities, which exhibited sudden, uncontrolled change.
Perelman's breakthrough was to understand how to analyze these singularities, essentially neutralizing them for a while and allowing the Ricci flow to proceed smoothly and show what a given space is really like, topologically speaking.
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David J

Post subject: poincare Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:17 am

kastellorizo wrote: [snip] Pantazis PS The article pretty much explains the problem: "in three dimensions, a doughnut shape cannot be transformed into a sphere without ripping it, although any shape without a hole can be stretched or shrunk into a sphere". Like saying that in topology, a doughnut is exactly the same thing with a tea cup that has a handle! Regarding the proof now.... it may take a while to explain!
One of the problems with these kinds of math problems is that by the time people usually find one they no longer speak a language other than math.
Poincare's conjecture is the same problem as that posed by the construction of a Klien bottle.
DJ


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reeeech

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm


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skeneegee

Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:31 pm Location: Arvada, CO

May this would come in handy for those bottles. I got this free with a pair of diagonal pliers a couple of years ago.
Attachments: 
klein.jpg [ 35.16 KiB  Viewed 2404 times ]

_________________ "It's like an alarm clock, WOO WOO" Bubb Rubb


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kastellorizo

Post subject: Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:17 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:31 am Location: Greece, Australia, Thailand, India, Singapore.

skeneegee wrote: I think he should take the money. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
I think it's great that prizes are offered to encourage people to make discoveries to further mankinds understanding of science. !
The same way there is nothing wrong with not taking the money. You must remember, that when he really needed encouragement, that was when he was let down by his fellow scientists.
Pantazis
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Frank Tiex

Post subject: Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:04 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:17 am Location: Düsseldorf, Germany


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reeeech

Post subject: Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:40 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm

StefanPochmann wrote: reeeech wrote: Q: What is a topologist? A: Someone who cannot distinguish between a doughnut and a coffee cup. HAHAHA that's a good one That's probably for the topologist what "I always peeled the stickers off" is for cubers...
LMAO!!! Funny how we just had a topic about that on the forum
Frank: Thanks for the links, i'll check them out

Wow, that's alot of head exercises to think and read through that!
http://www.claymath.org/millennium/Poincare_Conjecture/
yeah, it very well expands on the Klein Bottles! haha
Click the link and then click on the link  Official Problem Description — John Milnor... it'll open up a PDF file describing just that
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Haara

Post subject: Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:38 pm 

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 10:20 am Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

StefanPochmann wrote: kastellorizo wrote: A few days ago, he said that the reason he does not accept the prize, is because he was only interested in solving the problem and nothing else! If that is true, why does he bother to publish papers about it? Plus, your idol could at least give the prize money to charity.
Well, I guess he does not want to become the 21 century Fermat


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