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 Post subject: Lockpicking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:22 am 
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Does anyone have any experiance doing this? Specifically in the UK.

I'm about to buy myself my first set of slimline picks and to have a go at a couple of 5-pin tumbler padlocks. It's the C801 from here: http://www.devonlocks.com/cgi-bin/cart/section/2/

~Thom


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 Post subject: Re: Lockpicking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:47 pm 
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Kirjava wrote:
Does anyone have any experiance doing this? Specifically in the UK.

I'm about to buy myself my first set of slimline picks and to have a go at a couple of 5-pin tumbler padlocks. It's the C801 from here: http://www.devonlocks.com/cgi-bin/cart/section/2/

~Thom


I'm pretty sure nobody here in Oakland knows this skill, they just break your window and steal your speakers.

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 Post subject: Re: Lockpicking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:26 pm 
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Kirjava wrote:
Does anyone have any experiance doing this? Specifically in the UK.

I'm about to buy myself my first set of slimline picks and to have a go at a couple of 5-pin tumbler padlocks. It's the C801 from here: http://www.devonlocks.com/cgi-bin/cart/section/2/

~Thom


May I ask for what reason??


@skeneegee
At least you know they've been there then :P


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 Post subject: Re: Lockpicking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:32 pm 
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Haara wrote:
May I ask for what reason?


A hobby?

I don't see why people associate lockpickers with criminals. If you're going to pick a lock to steal something, why not just break the window instead like skeneegee said?

I for one find delight finding out how things work. Also, my house isn't as insecure as it used to be now :)

~Thom


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:40 pm 
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Well, I just got the feeling that I had to ask...

An example of something similar:
I wrote some posts on a forum about magic tricks since I bought a sucker die box, and was promissed instruction, but didn't get them...
There was a thread with a post like this:
1:"Hi everyone, does anyone of you know any picpocketing tricks?"
2:"Can't say I do, but I can't figure out how to put it in my street routine without pissing people of"
1:"Yeah, it's hard... Do you guys know any kind of tools that help?"
3:"Nothing more than quick hands an swift feet! Seriosly this would increase the pay..."


I kind of figured this tread might turn out something similar...
But I thought you were serious in this so I decided to ask :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Lockpicking
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:44 pm 
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Kirjava wrote:
I don't see why people associate lockpickers with criminals.


I actually don't, since I am carrying an education for a profession that might require these skills. (I got a paper at home that says that I due to my "millitary training" (no weapons, don't know the english word for that) can work as a part time fireman...)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:23 pm 
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Actually, I do.

I use a bunch of different techniques and picks, but my favorites are the LAB picks. They're double sided and really easy to maneuver inside tumbler locks and single/double wafer locks. They work great on heavily warded locks where you don't have lots of space to move. I think they make a euro/asia lock set made of slimmer metal. I would also recommend getting a clear practice lock or a cutaway lock so you can see the pins in action before you try it on the real thing.

I get all my supplies from http://www.lockpicks.com Easy and friendly service with lots and lots of tools available.

No, I'm not a criminal either. Here's my rationale:

Locks are very very difficult puzzles. They're the ultimate puzzle. However, solving them (unlike cubes) can actually prove useful in day-to-day life.

Hope this helps,
Quinn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:54 pm 
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Remember to check your state laws regarding lockpicks. Some states have laws against posessing them if you don't have a locksmith license.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:55 pm 
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Just to add to this, I would imagine the best lock designers would have to be the best lock pickers as well. They would have to know all of the traps to try to avoid in the designs.

-d


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:40 pm 
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Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Lockpicking is a dying art in general.

And yea, I pick locks as a hobby as well. Not very good at it, but I work on it a little when I can (not very often these days). It all goes back to my fascination with mechanical gadgets. I have a nice set of Southern Ordnance picks that I acquired through a friend of mine.

Generally lockpicks aren't illegal to possess, but companies will often not sell to you unless you are a locksmith or in law enforcement.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:24 am 
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Jin H Kim wrote:
It all goes back to my fascination with mechanical gadgets.


I'm fascinated by locks too, especially combination locks. I used to open all kinds of combination bike locks at school.

A year or two ago I bought this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0398070792/002-1399080-4608827?v=glance&n=283155
It is a huge gorgeous two-volume reference book (I like books too) with more than you'd ever need or want to know about locks and safes, and how they are picked, broken or bypassed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:37 pm 
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Ahh yes. That fantastic volume. I've always meant to buy that for myself some day but I just never get around to it. Lock picking as a hobby right now is definitely near the back end of things I get to do.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the skilled people here with some serious manual dexterity (jugglers) became really adept lock pickers.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:35 pm 
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Quote:
It wouldn't surprise me if some of the skilled people here with some serious manual dexterity (jugglers) became really adept lock pickers.


Heh, I think you're right!

Quinn

P.S. - I just got 42 catches with 7 balls yesterday :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Yes Quinn, I was talking about you. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:26 pm 
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What do you think about this?
http://www.tlarson.com/bumpkey.mov


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:42 pm 
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That is absolutely AMAZING!!
They do, however, sell a lockpicking "gun" that uses the same principle. Every time you pull the trigger, a piece snaps upwards and twists.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:07 am 
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Bump keys are cool, but lockpicking is more fun :)

Also, the pick gun can damage locks...

The advantage of a bump key is it's quicker and you can make it with a key a d a file and some spare time.

Did you guys catch the bump key conferance on toool.nl?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:45 am 
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There's a [Censored. Please be nice!] conference for that??? Didn't find it yet but just read this article:
http://www.physorg.com/news74137040.html

Uh, and this one even mentions the Rubik's Cube:
http://aznews.us/beware_the_%27bump%27_key.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:13 pm 
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StefanPochmann wrote:
There's a [Censored. Please be nice!] conference for that??? Didn't find it yet but just read this article:
http://www.physorg.com/news74137040.html

Uh, and this one even mentions the Rubik's Cube:
http://aznews.us/beware_the_%27bump%27_key.htm


Yeah, there's videos and reports on it and everything.

It's pretty big news at the moment. Especially since the police say that it doesn't work :)

http://www.toool.nl/bumping.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uv45y6vkcQ
Conferance: http://connectmedia.waag.org/toool/whatthebump.wmv
http://connectmedia.waag.org/toool/21c3.wmv
http://www.engadget.com/videos/lockdown ... defcon.wmv

The last one is fun :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:39 pm 
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I just watched the last one. I wish they had found a girl that can actually talk. Only the guy was talking, putting words in the mouth of the girl who was just smiling the whole time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:08 pm 
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To those who understand the method: am I right when I think that all the lock manufacturers need to do is to not cut the pins flat into two parts but zig-zag-like so that the two parts don't come apart except sliding sidewards? Like you can't pull a 3x3 edge out from between two centers but you can slide it out sidewards.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:14 pm 
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They have experimented with pins that sit on tracks, so that they do what you proposed, however, they broke really really easily, and constantly got stuck on the tracks. There are also Wafer Locks and Double Wafer Locks that are harder to pick. Those are the ones on your car door.

Quinn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:38 am 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
To those who understand the method: am I right when I think that all the lock manufacturers need to do is to not cut the pins flat into two parts but zig-zag-like so that the two parts don't come apart except sliding sidewards? Like you can't pull a 3x3 edge out from between two centers but you can slide it out sidewards.


The pins are cue flat because the shear line is flat, which is because the lock has a cylindrical core. If it werent flat, how would you turn the key?

One advantage of the the pins being cut flat is that it doesn't matter if they twist around. There are locks where the bottom end are slanted, and the key also has teeth that are slanted in different ways. In that type of lock, not only do the pins have to be pushed up a particular amount, they need to have the right orientation as well. The simplest mechanism for this does have a non-flat shear line, so that the pins are not cut flat and only separate sideways when they are oriented right.
This is a much more expensive lock.

A much simpler way to make bumbing more difficult is to use harder springs.

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http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:04 am 
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jaap wrote:
The pins are cue flat because the shear line is flat, which is because the lock has a cylindrical core. If it werent flat, how would you turn the key?


Um, same way? Do you ask because of the pin parts getting twisted? I admit at first I didn't think about that, but like Quinn said (I assume that's what he meant) they could be set on tracks to prevent this.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:47 am 
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I think this is a clever design. The pins lock if you try to rotate the cylinder before the pins are lifted.


Attachments:
bump this large.JPG
bump this large.JPG [ 55.12 KiB | Viewed 5659 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:01 am 
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skeneegee wrote:
I think this is a clever design. The pins lock if you try to rotate the cylinder before the pins are lifted.


Mushroom pins, interesting.

But surly that'd only make picking hard, not bumping?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:13 am 
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I have a spool/mushroom practice lock that I can pick within a minute every time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:28 am 
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Quinn Lewis wrote:
I have a spool/mushroom practice lock that I can pick within a minute every time.


Do you use a rake for that?

That's something else I wanted to ask. What sort of picks do you most frequently use? I'm ordering my first set this week.

In this set I've seen, I'm getting;

Half-diamond pick
Ball pick
Saw pick (I think it's called that)
Rake
3x Hook picks
Two tension wrenches

They're Euro picks.

Do I need anything else?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:55 pm 
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Is that the SouthOrd pick set? If so, you might wanna look at another brand, like Pederson.

And regarding equiptment, nah, you should be fine with those. However, wafer locks are another story. Check out lockpicks.com

Quinn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:07 pm 
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Quinn Lewis wrote:
Is that the SouthOrd pick set? If so, you might wanna look at another brand, like Pederson.

And regarding equiptment, nah, you should be fine with those. However, wafer locks are another story. Check out lockpicks.com

Quinn


Yeah, that's the SouthOrd one - why shouldn't I get it? Bad reviews/shoddy product?

Do you mean peterson?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:55 pm 
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They just are not well made at all. A friend ordered a set, and the picks barely fit into any locks we tried, especially the heavily warded ones. They're not quality, and will bend and break.

Yeah, Peterson is what I meant. Great picks. LAB picks are great too, they're what I use.

Quinn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:52 am 
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Don't want to be a killjoy, but is it actually legal to carry lock picks, if you are not a locksmith? For the UK, see "going equipped" -- apparently I can arrest you! Presumably other countries would have similar legislation...

Edit 1: looks as if blogan has the same concern.
Edit 2: I promise not to arrest anyone who can solve a Rubik's Cube. ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:26 am 
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Mike G wrote:
Don't want to be a killjoy, but is it actually legal to carry lock picks, if you are not a locksmith? For the UK, see "going equipped" -- apparently I can arrest you! Presumably other countries would have similar legislation...


Yes, but by the same rule, I can arrest you for carrying a hammer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:39 am 
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Kirjava wrote:
Yes, but by the same rule, I can arrest you for carrying a hammer.

Hey, I'm not carrying a hammer! :shock:

But you'd be unlikely to suggest that your stripey-shirted neighbour was "going equipped" if the only tool he was carrying was a hammer. A set of picks, on the other hand, might arouse your (or my) suspicions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:39 am 
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Mike G wrote:
Don't want to be a killjoy, but is it actually legal to carry lock picks, if you are not a locksmith?


Where does that page talk about lock picks? And what's the exact definition of a lock pick? And how do you prove that what I have here really is a lock pick? I claim it's only a toothpick.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:05 pm 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
Where does that page talk about lock picks?

It is an offence for a person, when not at his place of abode, to have with him any article for use in the course of or in connection with any burglary, theft or cheat.

Where does it talk about jemmies, sticks of dynamite, and bags marked "SWAG"?
Quote:
And what's the exact definition of a lock pick? And how do you prove that what I have here really is a lock pick? I claim it's only a toothpick.

I just have to believe it is a lock pick and have reasonable cause for suspicion:

Any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, committing an offence under this section.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:41 pm 
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Could you also arrest me for having *shoes* with me? Seriously, they're good for breaking shop windows to steal something and they're good for running away afterwards, too! What a rubbish rule that is...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:03 pm 
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There is a fine line that needs to be tread between legality and illegality and picking locks is certainly one of those.

In the States a private citizen is for the most part allowed to own and carry lockpicks. However circumstances may arouse suspicions depending on what you are doing and where you were detained with them. For example I wouldn't suggest loitering around a closed building at night with a set of picks in your pocket as that presents a high probability of being "noticed" in the first place.

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 Post subject: bump key
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:23 pm 
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This is a good video demonstrating a bump key.
very useful.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +key&hl=en


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