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 Post subject: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:45 am 
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So title says everything. Would it age or does this have to do with the whole paradox of it?


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:22 am 
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It depends. Does this time machine move through time with you? Or does it just teleport you?

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:25 am 
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thomasbomb wrote:
It depends. Does this time machine move through time with you? Or does it just teleport you?

Move through time with you. Thats what makes it a time machine and not a teleporter. (Not trying to be a smart a**)
But what would happen if you went back in time?


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:34 am 
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You would be basically traveling through time. I would think it would age. It is moving through time, not reversing it. At least that's how I would imagine it.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:55 am 
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Time travel into the past is impossible as far as I know, because if you went into the past and shot yourslef, there would be a paradox. Traveling forward in time, however, may be possible because I don't know of any paradoxes. Since matter can't be created or removed from space, you would end up in all periods of time between then and the time you are going to in the future, so the time machine would experience the aging process as you would, but nothing would look any different because no elements are affecting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:15 am 
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SamBegley wrote:
Time travel into the past is impossible as far as I know, because if you went into the past and shot yourslef, there would be a paradox. Traveling forward in time, however, may be possible because I don't know of any paradoxes. Since matter can't be created or removed from space, you would end up in all periods of time between then and the time you are going to in the future, so the time machine would experience the aging process as you would, but nothing would look any different because no elements are affecting it.


You can travel into the future by going near the speed of light. Basically you age slower, thereby from your perspective you are traveling into the future. If somehow you could see Earth while you were traveling, everything would seem to be happening faster. BTW I got all of this from a documentary on the discovery channel :D I think it was The Universe...

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:29 am 
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Would a time machine age?

I'll have to let you know. I'm getting my new model 2 weeks ago so I'll let you know how it panned out. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:26 am 
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Personally I think neither you nor the time machine would age while traveling together through time, since this would imply a another dimension of time within the normal dimension of time. In other words, time travel would happen in an instant, with no time to age during the "process". Essentially "time travel" IS teleporting.

Alternatively, you and the time machine must both age together, why should it be any different? But either way, I don't see any paradox.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:50 am 
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In my opinion it would age because the time machine would be editable after its creation. Otherwise you could just glue yourself to it and also not age. Although random your body would be no different than the metal holding the machine together.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:15 am 
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That depends on how it worked.

Say the time machine itself travels through time. When I hop in and travel back in time 20 years it stops being here (now) and starts being there (then). The trip takes me, say, five seconds but when those five seconds my time pass I'm suddenly in 1991. (Good god, that was 20 years ago. Where does the time go?) The time machine has likewise aged 5 seconds.

[editied to add:]If the trip is instantaneous my time, then the time machine has not aged and neither have I, obviously.[/edit]

On any given trip the time machine will age the same amount as the time traveler using it. When it isn't in use as a time machine it would age the same as anything else.

If you want to create a non-infinite time loop, give the time machine to your younger self with the instructions that younger self do the same when he/she is your age. Say this involves 40 year old you giving the time machine to 20 year old you. That means that every leg of the loop the time machine ages 20 years, at some point normal wear and tear is going to catch up with it and it will break down. That will break the time loop.

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The other end of the spectrum, which I know you're not talking about, would be a time machine that you built and it moved through time as any normal object but allowed you to move through time differently. (Say you build it today, it won't let you travel into the past, but it will allow you to travel to any point in the future when it still exists and it will allow you to travel from any of those points to now.)

If you use it to go 20 years into the future you'll find that it is twenty years older, along with the rest of the world, if you use it to travel twenty years back (which requires it to have been built at least twenty years ago) you'll find that it is twenty years younger.

It ages at the same rate as the planet it is tethered to because it doesn't actually travel through time but rather allows you to access any moment in time from when it was first brought online to when it finally went offline.

-

Between those two extremes we can posit many things that would age in many ways, and there are of course things that would be off the scale entirely. Consider a time machine that exists outside of time as we know it (though it would probably need some kind of time analog for a human being to operate it) which would never age and never travel. Instead you would open up a portal to it in one place, travel to it, tell it where you wanted to go, and step off of it somewhere else with it never directly interacting with the universe as we know it.

But in general, if a time machine travels with a time traveler you can expect it to age as much as the time traveler did over the course of the travel. When it isn't traveling through time you can expect it to age as much as anything else which it shares a relativistic frame of reference.

-

Oh yeah, important question:
Why do you want to know? Do you have one?


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:28 am 
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SamBegley wrote:
Time travel into the past is impossible as far as I know, because if you went into the past and shot yourslef, there would be a paradox. Traveling forward in time, however, may be possible because I don't know of any paradoxes. Since matter can't be created or removed from space, you would end up in all periods of time between then and the time you are going to in the future, so the time machine would experience the aging process as you would, but nothing would look any different because no elements are affecting it.


I'm not saying that it's possible to travel back in time, but I disagree with you're paradox. One could still go back and shoot themselves, but it's just creating an alternate reality. The multiverse theory allows for this as far as I know.

-d


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:34 am 
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Since time machines capable of travelling backwards don't exist I guess there isn't much point in discussing it but it sounds fun anyways.

One would assume that in the time machine's own reference frame it is aging at a constant rate. That reference frame could be thought of as a bubble that can move back and forth through time. From the point of view of an external observer though it should be possible to make the time machine look as though it isn't aging at all. This would basically be the equivalent of the time machine travelling at the speed of light but though the magic of time machines be actually stationary relative to the external observer.

It should also be possible to make the time machine appear to get younger from the point of view of an external observer.

It seems like this would imply that the time machine can experience all of our time, forwards and backwards, as many times as it wants, in an instant in it's own time. This isn't such a stretch though as a photon travelling from a far off star, billions of light-years away somehow experiences billions of years of our time and yet does not experience any time in its own reference frame.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:38 am 
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Added because, why not?

Here's an example of a more complex conception of how a time machine might age.

What if it is possible for a time machine to reverse your direction in time, but that's all it does*? It takes one year your time to travel one year into the past. That's all well and good if you want to travel back in time one minute, but what if you wanted to go back in time 20 years (which I have been using as a metric) maybe you're not willing to spend 20 years in a time machine to do it.

What if you wanted to find the lost poems of Sappho. Then you'd probably be looking at a journey of 2000 years. You'd die of old age before you got there. You'd need something else.

Time dilation would help. The way we know of is to go close to the speed of light, but if you built a time machine maybe you could build a time dilating device too. Now you'd have it so those two thousand years could be, for example, two seconds for you.

Now aging gets confusing. You step outside in the year 11 and find that the outside of your time machine has aged 2000 years (one year per year traveled) meanwhile the passenger cabin has aged 2 seconds (one second per millennium traveled) and between the two possibly a sliding scale of aging or possibly a fine line of differences in aging depending on the nature of your time dilation bubble.

Or something like that.

-

*Note that that really can't be all it does. If that were all it did you'd ram face first into yourself from one moment in the past. That would, presumably, go very badly. So you'd want something that either teleported you far away at the instant of reversal (so you wouldn't bump into anything) or better still somehow knocked you out of phase so that you might pass through solid objects such as your past self. While we're on the subject, I would also recommend some kind of invisibility thingy so that people do not see you and your time machine plodding into the past. Though invisibility might naturally come with being out of phase.

-

As a side note: It is way too hot here.


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Joe wrote:
So title says everything. Would it age or does this have to do with the whole paradox of it?


It's up to you. The time machine you speak of is your 'fantasy' so you are the only one who can tell us. I don't see how anyone can answer the question logically.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
It's up to you. The time machine you speak of is your 'fantasy' so you are the only one who can tell us. I don't see how anyone can answer the question logically.
The most logical answer yet! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:23 pm 
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If you were moving forward through time and aging at a typical rate, that's normal, so anything can be your time machine if you want to travel like that. *gets in large cardboard box*

Time travel is when you move forward through time and don't age, or you move backwards through time. At least, that's how I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Lima wrote:
The wormhole machine was invented in Serbia in the year of 2089.

Yeah, and that paved the way for the teleportation-apparatus which was invented in 2132. That's all ancient history now though :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:43 am 
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GoombaGeek wrote:
Lima wrote:
The wormhole machine was invented in Serbia in the year of 2089.

Yeah, and that paved the way for the teleportation-apparatus which was invented in 2132. That's all ancient history now though :lol:

Too bad Oskar tried to send his 170x170x170 to the present and destroyed the machine in the process.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:12 am 
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Wow, I seriously wasnt expecting many people to reply. But the main reason I ask this question is because I was thinking if you did have a time machine, and it started to go out then you could just go back in time to when it was new and take that one. :lol: But I have not really put anymore thought into it than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:37 am 
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Joe wrote:
Wow, I seriously wasnt expecting many people to reply. But the main reason I ask this question is because I was thinking if you did have a time machine, and it started to go out then you could just go back in time to when it was new and take that one. :lol: But I have not really put anymore thought into it than that.


Even if the time machine is stationary and doesn't travel with you, I don't see a reason why you can't build a second time machine and take it with you through the first.

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:45 am 
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I just got another thought.
If I set a $100 bill on the table, then put it in my pocket, got in my time machine and went back in time to when the bill was still on the table. Couldnt I just keep doing this for infinant money?


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:55 am 
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Joe wrote:
I just got another thought.
If I set a $100 bill on the table, then put it in my pocket, got in my time machine and went back in time to when the bill was still on the table. Couldnt I just keep doing this for infinant money?

No, because taking the $100 bill off of the table would mean that your past self couldn't get it. Instead of getting rich, you'd get a paradox. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:42 am 
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Joe wrote:
I just got another thought.
If I set a $100 bill on the table, then put it in my pocket, got in my time machine and went back in time to when the bill was still on the table. Couldnt I just keep doing this for infinant money?

That way lies paradox.

It would, presumably, be much easier to make a teleporter that exploited the Banach–Tarski paradox (which in spite of its name is not actually a paradox) and use it to matter duplicate some gold or some such.


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:04 am 
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Wouldn't it just be easier to see what the lotto numbers were and pick those numbers?

-d


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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:27 pm 
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darryl wrote:
Wouldn't it just be easier to see what the lotto numbers were and pick those numbers?

-d

Yeah, the world is full of ways to get money if you know what's going to happen in the future.

1. Pretend to get really drunk on the eve of the Super Bowl (or the Grey Cup if you're a Canadia dweller, eh), but don't actually consume alcohol.
2. Find a friend you don't mind losing.
3. Use time hacks, find outcome of sporting event.
4. Make a ridiculous bet on the outcome. (Like $5000) Your soon-to-be-not friend should go along with it because you look really drunk. Get him to write down that he agrees to the bet. Keep the paper.
5. ?????
6. PROFIT!

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 Post subject: Re: Would a time machine age?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Invest in microsoft stocks, google stocks, bring guhong into the past before the rubiks cube, ect

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What I like about this puzzle is how if you haven't seen an Oskar puzzle before you don't have a clue how it's supposed to turn.


Oskar wrote:
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Check out my blog

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