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 Post subject: put together puzzles
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:16 pm 
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Why are their none of the brain bender (put together puzzles) in the puzzle data base?

These are considered puzzles arent they? I have a plastic version of this puzzle and wanted to know if it is "rare" or just hard to find. Mine is dated 1988 and is colored plastic alot like rubiks puzzles


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 Post subject: Re: Put together puzzles
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:40 pm 
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Twistpuzzles only have sequential movement puzzles not put together puzzles or interlocking puzzles. Plus the sequential movement puzzles are never the same puzzle twice because you do need algorithms for them and not for the Put together puzzles. There you just need some instructions. Once you do the Put together puzzles one time you can usually do it very easy the next time around.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:03 am 
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I agree with Darren.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:50 am 
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The items you show are standard bur puzzles

I do not collect them but I have one with has some historical value a CCCP Bur :

Image

Many of the take apart are vey well made and in most cases the wooden puzzle are handmade

But as stated, once solved, the puzzle is no longer a challenge. My opion on these puzzles is that those who makes and design new types have the real puzzle challenge.
Ton


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:39 am 
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This is a cheap common puzzle with little value. I have the plastic and cheap wood versions :(

If you are interested in interlocking, take appart and put together puzzles you can go to John Rausch's puzzle world website, the best source of information for this type of puzzles
http://www.johnrausch.com/PuzzleWorld/default.htm


Here we deal with twisty and some sequential moving puzzles. Even many sequential moving have not traditionally been included.

Perhaps we ought to debate this topic. For example, many puzzle mugs are included currently but not the 15-puzzle or any of its hundreds of variations. They have exactly the same solution principle. Shouldn't we include any these ones?. In fact the 15-puzzle is probably more related in principle to twisty puzzles than the Brain,Spin-out ,Turn 12, Circus, Rubik's hat, Rubik's maze, Snake and others which are currently in the database bur are mostly pure combinatorial or binary. :?:

How about the binary arts games: Rush-hoour, Lunar Lockout, Metro, River Crosssing, Leaping Lizards and others. Should we add this too to the database? :?:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:55 am 
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Let me expand or rephrase my question. Should we include here discussion about all the sliding block puzzles (not only the 15-puzzle) ? . How about in the database? :?: :?: :?: :?:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:00 pm 
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My personal vote would be for TwistyPuzzles.com to stick with twisty puzzles. Let the sliding block puzzles go somewhere else.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 4:09 pm 
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Carter has a point. If twisty puzzles is a site dedecated to only twisty puzzles then what ate the sliding pulzzles doing here? If the sliding puzzles are allowed in then shouldent the put together puzzles be allowed too???

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:05 pm 
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There are some sliding puzzles that do cross over in the twistypuzzles category. But to include puzzles such as burrs, would open up the site to be too large and confusing. The puzzle database is a very healthy one.

Adding burrs would be like opening a can of worms. There are many sites already on burrs, this is the most specialised twisty puzzles site there is.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:50 pm 
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My general view is that in Twiststy Puzzles "a move" affects more tan one piece or section thus requiring groups of moves than can be applied reitedly to solve the puzzle.

Under this definition the following puzzles in the database do not belog here or require a new section:

1) Combinatorial Rubik's but definitely not twisty: Rubik's Rabitt, Rubik's maze, Rubik's dice, Rubik's snake. I guess this puzzles belong to the "Games" section.

2) Binary Solution : The Brain, Spinout, Elephant spinout. Should totally be OUT of the database?

3) Combinatorial: Buvos Golyok , cube Bolygok, Circus, all Inca versions, all Turn 12 versions. Should totally be OUT of the database because they are clearly not twisty and open a can of worms- I have the Thinkominoes, Gears and other puzzle that are similar to Circus. Instan Insanity, Drive ya crazy and many others are the same as as the Golyok.

4) Shape Producing: Snake clones, snaky. Again, probably belong to the "Games" section

I will accept the puzzles in Moving Hole section because they have historically been accepted by most of us, although most of them are questionable - in particular the mugs and the cans since many of them are just sliding block puzzles like the 15-puzzle. They don't bother me and I can claim that my collection is larger.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:32 am 
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This is one big can of worms we are opening here.

Quote:
My general view is that in Twiststy Puzzles "a move" affects more tan one piece or section


I would agree that most twisty puzzles have that characteristic, though this need not apply to all moves. Some sliding piece puzzles such as the whip-it or Babylon tower are definitely twistys in my view.

The Massage Ball too, even though you can slide each tile separately into the gap, you are really sliding sets of tiles at a time.

The classic 15 puzzle is debatable. Each pieces is slid separately, but to solve it, you certainly need a system of some kind. Sliding puzzles where the pieces are not all similar are of a different breed all together. I would tend to include the classic 15 puzzle in the Twisty category. I don't think you would want to include in the database all the different promo versions of it though, just some representative examples of different kinds.

Quote:
1) Combinatorial Rubik's but definitely not twisty: Rubik's Rabitt, Rubik's maze, Rubik's dice, Rubik's snake.


The snake is not even a puzzle really. The others I would conceptually group into 'matching' puzzles, like the circus puzzler, tantrix or instant insanity (your combinatorial category). The problem in these puzzles is not manipulating the puzzle to the position you want, but simply finding out what the solved position actually is.

I would not call these twisty, but many are interesting enough to be included in the list. It is hard to avoid domain creep though once you get started on this road.

Quote:
2) Binary Solution : The Brain, Spinout, Elephant spinout. Should totally be OUT of the database?


Tricky one. This is such a small category though that they might as well be included.

For my own site I have a fairly simple set of rules though. I only add a puzzle if:
1. I have one,
2. It was officially manufactured and sold in shops somewhere,
3. There is some logical/deducible solving method for it,
4. It is not merely a promo version of another puzzle,
5. I like it, or it intrigues me,
6. It is worth the effort to write something for it.

I occasionally break these rules myself. For example bandaged pyramid breaks rule 2, and Turn 12 rule 3.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:19 am 
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Wow! I guess that either i got all of you thinking about what really belongs in the database or you people have been thinking about this for a while.

well since i started it i guess i have my opinoin too what about electronic games???

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:46 am 
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I suppose I should have some opinion on this topic, but I really don't. There are unavoidable grey areas all over the database. Personally, I just don't bother thinking about them much. I make a choice and go with it, believing that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference one way or another.

For the most part, our field consists of those little black plastic things with colourful stickers on them. Where each person expands to from there is more a function of personal preferences than a set of rules. And without a universal set of rules, the question of what items should or should not be included in a public "museum" is simply unanswerable.

Sandy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:10 pm 
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I stick with puzzles that are singular or combinations of polyhedra including archimedian solids and crystialine structures. These shapes must then be sliced into simple shapes such as triangles, squares, pentagons, rectangles, etc. and have each plane of shapes be a seperate color, where oppostie planes with same colors are legal. The puzzle then must be twistable on axes that run through the center of the planes, thus mixing the pieces in such a way that they can still be returned to the original state. Thus, I display twisty puzzles only in my museum. If you want to know what would or would not be included in the museum, post a puzzle and I'll let you know.

http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/cm-view.cgi?mid=62

All of the puzzles at the link above count except for the whip-it, tricky disky, darth maul head, and homer simpson head. Does that make sense why? I should probably put up the museums collection at some point as oppose to my small personal keepings...

P.S. - Sandy, can you please put up the pictures I sent you. Here's the address again in case you deleted the message: http://www.antiaverage.com/images/twist ... evor_Sayre).zip

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:01 pm 
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Like, evryone, I'm impressed that we have come to an implicit agreement about "Rubik's Like" puzzles with only few exceptions. I agree with Jaap fully. Most moving hole puzzles have a Twisty feeling to them, in particular the Whip-it like and Missing Link (you certainly have to twist things).

So I will limit my suggestion to creating a new section. You can call it "other Intersesting" like Jaap, but I called it Combinatorial because to solve them you have to rely heavily on trial and error to sort through all the possible combinations (guided by some logic of constraints), as opposed to the neat algorithmic nature of the rest. Again here are the puzzles that belong in this category:

Rubik's Rabitt, Rubik's maze, Rubik's dice, Rubik's Tangle, Buvos Golyok , cube Bolygok, Circus, Color Matcher, Kibble Cube, Snaky, Hot Rocks, all Inca versions, all Turn 12 versions,Instant Insanity, Drive ya crazy, Spectra, Pyrix, Tantrix Rock (underlined puzzles are currently in the database, the others belong here is someone wants to add them)

I guess that you can leave The Brain, Spinout, Elephant spinout were they are since they are more related to the Twisty puzzles than the "Combinatorial", in that a repeated use of an algorithm can be used to solve the puzzle and there is some sliding.

I would also move all the Snake versions to the "Games" category. It is a very long strech to call these a puzzle.

Let me again say that these are very few exceptions to an outstanding database. By the way Sandy, thanks for already expanding the categories. It has made my life much easier to search for the stuff that I would like to have next.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:07 pm 
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the snake keeps popping up in your post

i think the snake is twisty in a puzzley sorta way. it is one of those puzzles that once you figure it out it is easy and jsut to keep in mind that the snake dose have a cahllenge it just really dosent aply because when you remove the snake from its ball like form its funner to try to make new different shapes not put it back how it was. so if you think about it the snake is a twisty puzle!!!

just not the black plastic kind with colorfull stickers as sandy puts it :D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:46 am 
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What about the white plastic kind with colorful sticker?? :(

Also, Sandy, please read my post that comes before this one...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:10 am 
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Trevor Sayre wrote:
Also, Sandy, please read my post that comes before this one...


Read and noted. I've downloaded the file (feel free to delete it) and have looked at the pictures, but that's about where my time ran out. As I'm in the habit of saying, I have a backlog of contributions which I keep meaning to get to, but my pesky life keeps getting in the way... not to mention all the work the TwistyMegasite conversion has required (and still requires).

Your pictures will be added sometime this month, but at the moment, you are unfortunately at the end of a rather long queue.

BTW, next time you take pictures, don't drape your hair over the puzzles! There are two photos with long blond hairs front and center, and it's going to take a few minutes to edit out each one!

Also, what did you want me to do with the Hexagonal Prism pictures? Is there a difference between yours and this one:

http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/puzzle.cgi?pid=457

The colours are different, but this is not unusual. I have yet to see two Wonderful Puzzler Octagonal Prisms with the same colour assignment. They share most (perhaps all) of the same colours, but colour assignment seems to have been random (as with the Cuboctahedron). I suppose I should add that info to the entries for those two puzzles.

Sandy


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:42 pm 
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Okay, first off, what blonde hair? I don't have blonde hair. Also, there's no way it could drape over the camera, it's short...so that's really odd. I've reviewed the pictures and still don't see what you're talking about. Also, there are a lot fewer pictures in that zip file than I had intended, there should be over 15 pictures.

On another point, are there ways I can edit the pictures for you so that all you have to do is upload? I'm sure it would make life simpler for you and would certainly make me happy. I'm quite good at Photoshop and can do any requried task.

As for the Octagonla prism, I wasn't aware of the ever changing color scheme. It seems odd that they would do that. Either way, I accept what you've said and I'll just put up the existing image. So, you can ignore that picture set if you wish.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:34 pm 
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> Okay, first off, what blonde hair?

Looks blond... just reflecting the camera flash perhaps. Check "DiamondPuzzle(light blue, F).JPG" and "DiamondPuzzle(white, U).JPG". It is quite prominent.

> Also, there are a lot fewer pictures in that zip file
> than I had intended, there should be over 15 pictures.

There are 27 (8 Diamond, 8 Octagonal Prism, 11 Rhombic Prism). How many did you mean to add? Given these two apparent discrepancies, perhaps you sent me the wrong file.

> On another point, are there ways I can edit the
> pictures for you so that all you have to do is upload?

Of course! If you can match the quality level I'm trying to maintain for all new pictures, please do so! This is not a way of me saying I'm wonderful at photographing and editing pictures or anything, quite the contrary in many respects. But if the pics aren't relatively clean and clear, they are just likely to be replaced eventually, thus unnessissarily spending additional time of those involved.

Until I surpass the plateau of having all of my personal items photographed and added to the site (and have similarly processed the 1000+ photographs of unique or rare items I have collected from eBay over the past few years), there is no shortage of puzzle images to add, and therefore, I can try to uphold a quality standard. Once I reach that plateau, however, I suspect most standards will be cancelled, since there will be very few new items discovered and therefore only a precious few images to add, whatever their quality happens to be.

The Back-Story: When I first took over the site, most of the photographs were GIFs with a width of 100 pixels (the same size of the thumbnail versions you see on a search results page). It has been a massive undertaking to reshoot and replace all of those photographs and to provide larger versions. (There are still a few hundred which have yet to be replaced. Example.) It is because of this undertaking that I now know that accepting sub-par images into the database just creates more work later. Therefore, to prevent further reshooting and relpacing of photographs, I have been avoiding adding photographs that don't meet the current standards of the site.

Side-bar: Furthermore, for all 1600+ photographs I have shot and edited for this site, I have retained a copy of both the original photograph well as the full-size edited version (about 10x the largest size currently visible on this site). I have kept these for the very likely scenario that some future version of the site (or perhaps a CD, book or catalogue) will benefit from these higher resolution versions. When those larger versions eventually come into play, there will once again be some images left behind and require replacing, but it will be a far smaller and far more managable group than it was when all of this started!

Hopefully all that makes sense. There is a method to my madness.

Sandy


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:12 pm 
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Sandy,

You obviously put an enormous amount of effort into this site. Thank you!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:49 pm 
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Yes, Sandy, thank you so much for your hard work. Excellent response. It seems like you got the correct zip file, but when I checked it must have been corrupt. Go figure. Judging by the names you're mentioning, you have the correct pictures. I still have all the originals on my computer, and there are no signs of hair or other imperfections. I'm just wondering what standards you hold so that I may make them conform so you can just upload as oppose to working on them yourself. You can check them, of course, but I'm positive I can make them more than satisfactory. I assume I should just cut them out of the picture so that there is just a white background. What size would you like them to be? Shall I just use the already posted puzzles as examples? I'll include thumbnails as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:15 am 
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Trevor Sayre wrote:
I assume I should just cut them out of the picture so that there is just a white background. What size would you like them to be? Shall I just use the already posted puzzles as examples? I'll include thumbnails as well.


My IDEAL situation is you send me the original full-size pictures with only one edit: the background replaced with pure white. I have some scripts that will crop the picture as required, save the full-size version in an archive, and generate the three different image sizes and types required for the database. Running this script only takes a few minutes, and if the pics are ready to go, I generally do them before any other contributions. If there is any info you would like to accompany your pictures once they are added to the site, you can save me more time by filling out the "Add a New Puzzle" form on the Contribute Info page (under the Puzzle Database option in the menu).

Here's a decent example of what a finished picture should look like. The background has been removed, the focal point is in focus (although if the depth of field was larger the far side of the puzzle would be clearer... my mistake... poor lighting combined with no tripod), and the brightness and contrast options in Photoshop have been used to bring out the colours (but don't overdo it... it's always possible to go further forward, but it's impossible to go back once two similar colours have been merged).

Image

Sandy


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:09 pm 
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Thank you again! I'll get right to work.

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 Post subject: Re; put together puzzles
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:59 pm 
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Here are my 2 cents and sorry for opening up the can of worms again. Should the Pyrix belong in the twistypuzzles category? I think so anyway sort of. Just curious!!!! :roll: :)


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 Post subject: Re: Re; put together puzzles
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:26 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
Here are my 2 cents and sorry for opening up the can of worms again. Should the Pyrix belong in the twistypuzzles category? I think so anyway sort of. Just curious!!!! :roll: :)


i think YES :shock: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Re; put together puzzles
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:06 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
Here are my 2 cents and sorry for opening up the can of worms again. Should the Pyrix belong in the twistypuzzles category? I think so anyway sort of. Just curious!!!! :roll: :)



The Pyrix, the Pyrus and whatever is the name of the third one (there are 3 similar pyramids) all belong with the Kibble Cube and and the Rubik's Maze in the new category that I proposed under the name Combinatorial. Strictly speaking they are not Twisty Puzzles, they are not even sequential moving ... they are trial and error folding puzzles that have a solution in a shape that is familiar to twisty puzzlers. But, again, let us not confuse familiarity with .. being a part of the family. I have a Pyrix and I vote to add it to the database. However, let us just catlog it for what it really is.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:41 pm 
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I'm going to back up Oscar on this. A Combinatorial section is a good ideas along with allowing the mentioned puzzles. They are so often recognized as part of the Rubik collection (despite not being Rubik, twisty, or assembly at all) it would seem unfair to deny them a place.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:23 pm 
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Another posible title instead of Combinatorial is Patern puzzles. The Puzzle Museum website uses the following 2 definitions for the puzzles that we have been discussing:

PATTERN PUZZLES (PAT) require the placing or arrangement of separate pieces of a similar nature to complete surface patterns according to defined rules. The pattern required may be the matching of edges of squares, faces of cubes, etc. The pattern may be colour, texture, shape, etc. Where the pattern is due to differences in shape they must be sufficiently minor not to obscure the similarity of the pieces.

FOLDING & HINGED PUZZLES (FOL) have parts that are joined together and usually do not come apart. They are solved by hinging, flexing, or folding.


You can read the Puzzle Museum classification here:

http://puzzlemuseum.com/class/pzcla99a.htm


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:08 am 
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If such a gategory is created (PAT), I guess Kinato puzzles could be included.

http://www.kinato.com/

Michael


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:16 am 
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Why dose everyone keep talking about new catagories did sandy ever agree to opening a new topic All I ever asked is what if, i like the database how it is now ive been through enough looseing my computer and im risking my laptop right now i dont want something im perfectly used to to change and i know every one is just posting your opinoins but please make it sound like your posting your opinoins because your all making it sound like the data base is going through a major change and that is defenently not a good thng for new people to see on this site i know im making it seem like a big deal but i like this site how it is and want no changes.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:24 pm 
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Quote:
Why dose everyone keep talking about new catagories ... did sandy ever agree to opening a new topic ...


Relax. Sandy is a very smart person. This was just my suggestion of what I think is an improvement

Quote:
now i dont want something im perfectly used to to change and i know every one is just posting your opinoins but please make it sound like your posting your opinoins because your all making it sound like the data base is going through a major change


Don't worry. Even if Sandy makes the changes that I suggested (and I know where you live Sandy), we are talking about 10 or so puzzles currently in the database but with potential of expanding.

Quote:
i like this site how it is and want no changes


And I ike it too. But this is a dynamic website. Puzzles are being added all the time and newcomers want to explore the possibilities. Sandy has to balance the number of categories (too many categories can be confusing) with the hability to search and describe the properties of the puzzles.

So yes, I, Oscar, am suggesting that a new Category is needed to accomodate the puzzles that MANY of us want to keep in the database, but are not quite Twisty. Patern Puzzles sounds like a good description to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:46 am 
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Oscar wrote:
Patern Puzzles sounds like a good description to me.


Since everyone seems interested in it, I can definitely add a new category. It's a simple 10 minute job. (Thanks to the scripts I wrote when I added the five new categories earlier this month! -pat-pat-pat-)

Will it be "Pattern Puzzles" or "Combinatorial"? Let's make it a vote, but feel free to come up with a completely different suggestion. Please keep in mind that I've tried to keep the categories simple to understand for non-fanatics. For example, I resisted the urge to create a Masterball category, cause the new user wouldn't neccessarily know to look in any category other than "Sphere".

Also, please give a list of the puzzles that fit in the category that you are voting for. Some puzzles will seem to fit better in one candidate category than the others.

Sandy


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:10 pm 
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this is pretty much directed to oscar. i was not freaking out i was just telling every one that newcomers dio not want to be reading the fourm and readstuff like( how about this and why dont we ttry this) they will think that e are compleatly changing the fourmi was just saying that it is a good idea to make sure that we sound like we are stating our opinoins :D

and another thing to oscar, thank you for thinking that i was freaking out that got me an A+ in drama class i am really good at sarcasim :D :D :D

that whole paragraph was a test to see how you will reply like a school paper this is how i trick people into getting things correct when i help at school. They say i have creative thinking skills and do every thing different than the teachers

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:55 pm 
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Anyway...let's get back on topic. I vote for "Combinatorial."

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