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 Post subject: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Excuse me starting a new thread, but I thought this deserved a new start.

I have put together an article on my website describing how the Pentultimate was made, with lots of photos and explanation of the mechanism.

Here it is:

http://www.puzzleforge.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=54

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:23 pm 
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Great web ..... PUZZLE FORGE

will be a puzzle-shop web too?

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:30 pm 
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It's bloody brilliant!

But you're indeed a knucklehead for going through that much trouble! :-)

I guess this concept could be used to build more puzzles, that so far couldn't be build. Proposals anyone?

Thomas

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:35 pm 
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So how do you assemble the final pieces? Great photos by the way!


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:46 pm 
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*faints*

Holy freaking cow. You said it was a lot of pieces... But WOW! Those are A LOT of pieces!

Thank god those washers worked out - I couldn't imagine going through that process over again.

The end results paid off though. Glad it worked out.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Thats amazing, I had no idea this puzzle was so complicated on the inside, really quite amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:02 pm 
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Amazing work! I had no idea that the puzzle was that complex on the inside! good job! using that drill really seemed useful! I never knew it could cut such smooth pieces. I look forward to the second version

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...............


CLONK

That was my jaw hitting the floor.

This is absolutely unbelievable. The whole mechanism is such an original, mind-boggling concept. I can barely believe that an individual has had the audacity first to conceive, then to believe, then to realise such an incredible work of art. I am running out of anything to say which even comes close. This is absolute genius.

Fantastic article in its own right. I think I am roughly 100x more gobsmacked than I was when I had no idea how the mechanism worked.

Can this EVER be topped?


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:29 pm 
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All I have to say is you must be ones seriously screwed up guy to attempt and complete something as daunting and mentally strenuous as that puzzle must have been. :wink: Congratulations on a job well done.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:38 pm 
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That is...twisted. You must have some sort of head injury to attempt that. A delicious head injury. This is a monumental feat.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:54 pm 
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you must sell master molds :shock:
You will make thousands


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:02 pm 
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After he said it was hollow in the center, I thought of a few ways he could have done it, and something sort-of along these lines was on the list. It was also the FIRST thing I thought "no, that can't be it--nobody would ever take on a project that difficult!". I couldn't have been more wrong!!!

Great work, and nice website!

PS: What's happening with the tetrex puzzles these days?

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:35 pm 
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While I did know of this mechanism, I never thought someone would undertake a project of this magnitude. Wow! It's simply amazing! Great job, Jason!

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Wow. Incredible. Just.. amazing. Excellent work.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:50 pm 
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I'm just going to be blatantly rude, and say you're an idiot.

But to increase my chances of getting this, I'll say you're a genius!

One thing I think you could have elaborated on, was page 13, I don't get how you went from the 'penultimate' photo, to the final photo?

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:57 pm 
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i don't understand why so many layers are necessary. i've been going over the images for a while and just can't figure it out. perhaps i'll understand after thinking about it for a couple days.

anyway... AMAZING!

edit: got it.


Last edited by p|astic on Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:06 pm 
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p|astic wrote:
i don't understand why so many layers are necessary. i've been going over the images for a while and just can't figure it out. perhaps i'll understand after thinking about it for a couple days.

anyway... AMAZING!



Each piece/section has it's own track to slide on. I'm guessing if there were different amount of pieces, there would be different amount of layers.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:09 pm 
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YAY

Each center uses it's own layer. ex: green has the outermost layer and yellow has the next one in.
(Thanks for explaining it at the Berkeley meet up thing)

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:19 pm 
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p|astic wrote:
i don't understand why so many layers are necessary. i've been going over the images for a while and just can't figure it out. perhaps i'll understand after thinking about it for a couple days.

anyway... AMAZING!


Look at a Skewb. All the square center pieces have two 'flaps' that are positioned underneath the 'fixed' corners. When you twist the Skewb the two 'flaps' of one square never interfere with the 'flaps' of another square, because they can only be in two positions (0 degrees and turned 180 degrees). On the Pentultimate this is not the case. That's why the 'flaps' of the pantagon shaped centers all have their own layer, so they can move over and under each other.

Excuse my crappy English.

Thomas

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Last edited by Thomas on Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:17 pm 
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oh...my...god....


I don't think i have ever seen anything so incredible in my entire life!
Page 13 was amazing-it looked like the gaping jaw of some immense million-toothed demon!

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:30 pm 
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... i'm speachless.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:46 pm 
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:shock: I never would have considered doing it that way! Simply amazing, both the design, your perseverance, and that you actually got it to work! Fantastic work and thanks for sharing.
Lee


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:29 pm 
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juanan wrote:
Great web ..... PUZZLE FORGE

will be a puzzle-shop web too?


That's my hope, if I can come up with something that takes less time to build. :)

Thomas wrote:
I guess this concept could be used to build more puzzles, that so far couldn't be build. Proposals anyone?


It does extend to other deep cut puzzles, (edge turning cube, vert, edge or face turning icosa) , but I think it's quite hard to make puzzles this way. :oops:

pelley wrote:
So how do you assemble the final pieces? Great photos by the way!


I guess I didn't explain that... The final piece is capped with a latex plunger. You just twist 36 degrees, push it in until the plunger pops below the neighboring pieces, and twist it back to lock it in to the surrounding pieces. The 'key' piece with the latex plunger is visible in David Litwin's "Berkeley Meetup" photos. Sorry I neglected to include a photo of it in the article.

Taylor wrote:
y only question about the process is what did you do for drilling holes in the molds. I need some suggestions for doing it more efficiantly.


I just cut a small V shaped (cross section) line up from the part. After about 1/2 inch, I flare the V shape wider to make a bit of a reservoir. This way, when you're working out the bubbles, there is resin waiting to fill the void.


By the way, thanks for all the comments. As you can imagine, it was a lot of work, and it's nice that there are other crazy people out there in the internets that care about this kind of thing. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:15 pm 
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i realy liked how you milled jigs from 2x4s, something about that just cracked me up

the design is so simple yet so complex, congratulations

have you derived a solution yet?

also, is it necisary for the pentagons to be composed entirely of layers or could they be solid with only the ridge sticking out?


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:40 pm 
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As soon as I saw this thread, I went to the site and printed the whole document as a PDF. I am GOING to figure out how this thing works! This is AMAZING!

(EDIT: So THAT'S why there are so many layers to it, because all the fasteners need to be on different levels!)

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:42 pm 
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Oh my GAWD.. Thats freaking amazing!!!

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:24 pm 
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bloody brilliant

I mean...seriously!


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:20 am 
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Wow, a great piece of engineering! This is actually the same mechanism I suggested back in 2004, although possibly not clearly enough for many people to understand :)
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18712#p18712
Image

But I didn't imagine it would work too well in practice! So I'm glad to see it realised.

I'm pleased to see that the underlying mechanism is in the shape of an icosidodecahedron. This would allow you to make caps of different shapes to attach for various different overall shapes. Currently you attach caps to the triangles to form a dodecahedron. But you could equally well use caps on the pentagons to form an icosahedron. Or caps on both for a rhombic triacontahedron. Even weirder shapes would be a cube, octahedron, or tetrahedron. I showed what some of these would look like back in 2003. (It looks like messages before 2004 have been scrambled somewhat, but I've edited to fix it up again). See here:
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8902#p8902
Image
Image

Rob.


Last edited by Robert Webb on Sat May 10, 2008 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:36 am 
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I hadn't realised (probably like many people) that the mechanism concept had been around for such a while, even though I have frequently trawled back through posts earlier than my join date, this one had passed me by.

The concept itself is quite brilliant, and opens up many variation mods on the same mech. I can't see any obvious reason why similar mech-types could not be used on other kinds of 3D symmetries where rotation planes all meet in the centre of the puzzle (I think "deep cut" is the right term), i.e. it could work for a skewb, but not a rubik cube or pyraminx. Does this not open the door not only to a variety of mods on the same mech, but a whole family of deep-cut mechs that have this property?

I have to still say, if I had read about this mech idea before the puzzle construction, I would have thought "great concept, it will never work!" This does not in any way take away from the fantastic idea or the awesome (overused word, but not in this case!) construction of this puzzle.

Great ideas. Great work. I love it!


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:57 am 
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Robert,

Thanks for fixing your post. I loved it and was sad to see that old posts has been scrambled like that over the years.

I even linked to it in one of my more recent threads about this puzzle.

http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/view ... f=1&t=8798

Like IO said in the original Pentultimate thread, he was considering making an icosahedron shape.


Personally the rhombic triacontahedron is my favorite. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:48 am 
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Robert, I have looked for these images since Noah's Pentultimate info post! I'm so glad to see them reposted.

I think it is hilarious that you considered this mechanism 3 years before me. I guess I can stop that patent application. :) (kidding of course)

Yet another proof that it's all been thought of before. But it is amazing that we would both consider the same exact mechanism independently.

-Jason

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:19 am 
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io wrote:
I think it is hilarious that you considered this mechanism 3 years before me.... it is amazing that we would both consider the same exact mechanism independently.


I reckon there's only so many ways to do something, and lots of people have thought about how to make this puzzle, so I guess it was bound to happen. I am proud of the idea though, as it's quite different from other twisty puzzle mechs, and more proud now that it ended up being the first mech used in practice. In addition to coming up with the same mech concept though, you've done the hard part of actually figuring out how to make it work in practice! I tried my hand at plastic stuff a while back and proved a dismal failure, so I figured there wasn't much reason to keep mech ideas to myself :(

I think this mech-idea is now my second claim to twisty-fame. My first was that it seems I was the first person to ever make a Dino cube. It was made from paper:
http://www.software3d.com/Puzzle.php
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Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:09 am 
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Robert Webb wrote:
I think this mech-idea is now my second claim to twisty-fame. My first was that it seems I was the first person to ever make a Dino cube. It was made from paper:
http://www.software3d.com/Puzzle.php
Image

Rob.

Even before they were manufacutred?

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:53 am 
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joey wrote:
Robert Webb wrote:
...it seems I was the first person to ever make a Dino cube.

Even before they were manufacutred?


Yes, 1985 I think. Later Stephen Harvey published a paper about the same puzzle after he also made one from paper (with no knowledge about my one).

Actually I just checked the puzzle patents page. It gives two Dino patents in 2000 (wasn't it manufactured before that?), and another patent for a combo dino/2x2x2 (now called the super-x?) in 1984, which was before my dino I think, although they presumably hadn't made one. Was the combo patent really around before the dino?!

Sorry, this is all way off-topic. Let's get back to people saying "awesome!" :D
Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:46 am 
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Hey Robert, real nice to see you here again! I remember our lengthy discussions about this (and other) Pentultimate mechanism several years ago. 8-) It's soo nice to see this puzzle finally made! :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:20 pm 
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I don't want to sound like too much of a party pooper, but although this build is quite impressive and technically works, it isn't quite playable, due to the obvious fiddly alignment issues. I expect that much better pentultimates, including playable ones, will be made in the future (possibly using this design, more likely using other ones).

Still very impressive though, and certainly lays claim to being the first working pentultimate.

My comment on seeing it was to tell io 'maybe you're knuckleheaded enough to build a big chop using staples'. I predict someone will do it by 2020.

About the whole reinvention thing - it's very hard to come with an idea which someone else won't do sooner or later. I figure that for reasonably inevitable mechanisms, whoever builds it first gets credit. Really, how many times has a pyraminx crystal been made, and has anybody ever used a different mechanism? Or is there really likely to be much variety in gigaminx mechanisms beyond the few straightforward variations which happen in 5x5x5s?

My own puzzle invention efforts have shifted to the small and novel rather than the big and complicated because of recent builds. Nothing wrong with big impressive mechanisms, but other people are doing a good job of searching out that space, so I'm working on things with as few parts as possible.

From a mechanism invention standpoint, the bigger milestone will actually be the little chop, which for some fairly arcane reasons is actually quite a bit trickier to design a mechanism for than the pentultimate. I don't anticipate very much independent reinvention there.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:47 pm 
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Bram wrote:
From a mechanism invention standpoint, the bigger milestone will actually be the little chop, which for some fairly arcane reasons is actually quite a bit trickier to design a mechanism for than the pentultimate. I don't anticipate very much independent reinvention there.


Bram: The little chop is being worked on right now by the.drizzle. (incase you missed it)

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:49 pm 
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joey: I believe he's having some technical issues. Like I said, it's a difficult mechanism.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:24 am 
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Bram wrote:
...knuckleheaded enough to build a big chop using staples'.


What's a big chop? I can't find any reference to such a thing, only to little chop.

Quote:
Really, how many times has a pyraminx crystal been made, and has anybody ever used a different mechanism?


Actually, how many times has it been made? I was away from these forums for a few years and didn't know anyone had done it. Back then my idea for a mech was to just have the visible pieces, holding onto each other using tabs which expanded in their matching tracks to make sure they stayed in their tracks. Is this what you call staples? There would be a section during a twist where a tab would be in free space (hidden inside the puzzle though) between successive tracks, but I think it could work.

Has anyone made anything using this kind of staple technique yet? Does it not work well?

Quote:
From a mechanism invention standpoint, the bigger milestone will actually be the little chop, which for some fairly arcane reasons is actually quite a bit trickier to design a mechanism for than the pentultimate. I don't anticipate very much independent reinvention there.


You can always use this pentultimate trick and have 12 separate tracks, one for each piece :D

Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:07 am 
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When I considered using this mechanism to make a little chop, I thought it would take 24 tracks. Now THAT would be hard to make!

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:28 pm 
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Robert,

The Pyraminx Crystal has been made by three people. Our very own Aleh has made 14. 2 from Dogics, the other dozen from Megaminxs. He used the name "Brilic" for this puzzle.

Master builder Katsuhiko Okamoto has made an undetermined amount. I don't know his mechanism. The name 'Mega Crystal"

The final builder is Uwe Meffert. He is currently mass producing them based off the same method used by Aleh for the majority of his "Brilics".

Also, for a functional Little Chop using the Pentultimate method, you would need 24 tracks, not twelve. The edges are not connected, but two separate pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:46 am 
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Noah wrote:
for a functional Little Chop using the Pentultimate method, you would need 24 tracks, not twelve. The edges are not connected, but two separate pieces.


Oops! My bad, you're right, there are 24 pieces, yikes!

Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:25 pm 
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Neat- a friend informs me it was on the front page of Make yesterday:
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/0 ... 6B48984890

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:36 pm 
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Very cool. Make magazine is a great periodical.

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:26 pm 
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This is one of my favorite periodicals!
Jason, congratulations! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:17 am 
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Congrats Jason! Well deserved for some outstanding puzzle.
(and I always love to see again those big lego pieces you used for the casts LOL)

:mrgreen:


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: The Making of the Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:20 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 6:14 am
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
I need to buy some Lego bricks. For, uh, making mold boxes, yea.

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