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Should I make another?
Yes 88%  88%  [ 35 ]
No 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
There can only be one 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 40
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 Post subject: Master Tetrahedron: Completed
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:12 pm 
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VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1x91tlMp-M



Pictures:
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I have finally finished my First ever puzzle. I re-sanded the internal mechanism to minimize hitching and now it turns just as good as a Rubik's 5x5x5
I hand cut the colors from vinyl tape with an exact-o-knife. I sanded down the core for a tighter grip on the pieces and the result is much more stable!

I hope you all enjoy the puzzle, if you are interested in buying one PM me and we'll talk!


Attachments:
File comment: It Turns!
Master_Tetrahedron_4.jpg
Master_Tetrahedron_4.jpg [ 224.79 KiB | Viewed 5647 times ]
File comment: Fully Assembled
Master_Tetrahedron_3.jpg
Master_Tetrahedron_3.jpg [ 226.82 KiB | Viewed 5601 times ]
File comment: Second Layer
Master_Tetrahedron_2.jpg
Master_Tetrahedron_2.jpg [ 220.2 KiB | Viewed 5569 times ]
File comment: First Layer
Master_Tetrahedron_1.jpg
Master_Tetrahedron_1.jpg [ 216.57 KiB | Viewed 5583 times ]
File comment: Concept
Tetrahedron_Mod.jpg
Tetrahedron_Mod.jpg [ 47.2 KiB | Viewed 11581 times ]

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Last edited by Drewseph on Fri May 16, 2008 12:53 am, edited 23 times in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:26 am 
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I'm not sure exactly how helpful this post is, but here's the link to it. Hope it helps! I'm sure that there are more like it, so keep looking!

viewtopic.php?t=4466&highlight=cubeoctahedron


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 Post subject: Re: Taking apart a puzzle
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:49 am 
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Drewseph wrote:
I have a skewb ultimate and was curious to see how it works, but I have no idea how to take it apart without destroying it.

any ideas?


Here's how.

Thomas

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:04 am 
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Beautiful! thanks thomas!

as for the octahedron, damn, then again, I'm not surprised this was thought of, I have yet to see it though..... (begins to wonder how the hell to convert a 5x5 into such a thing....)

after looking at what they called a trabjer's octahedron it seems very different to my and the original question in that post's question. I guess its time to start blueprinting in max tomorrow ^_^

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:12 am 
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He's talking about a Tetrahedron, not an Octahedron. :wink: You have twice as many sides. :P

http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... ra_fv7.htm

Here's an online version of the Tetrahedron puzzle he's talking about.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:23 am 
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I think thats the right thing Noah, it keeps crashing my browsers (even fire fox) oh well.

do you think such a design is impossible? I can't think of a way to keep the extra layers attatched while turning because they move way too far from the body,

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 Post subject: Re: Taking apart a puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:14 pm 
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Thanks Thomas for the excellent pictures showing how to disassemble the Skewb Ultimate.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking apart a puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Well I've managed to create a close to perfect scale 3d model of the desired puzzle posted at the top, however when I turn a surface the botom corners are so far out that they have nothing to join them to the center with =( I'm thinking I'll have to change the puzzle design to be more rounded, otherwise I'm at a loss for designing the interior device.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with designing a puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:59 pm 
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you could also move the slices closer to the center.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with designing a puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:27 pm 
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true, but thats exactly what I wanted to avoid =P I think its neat to have pieces o the far edge. but oh well, I'll find a way to do it

**EDIT**

Well, I've finally found a suitable shape to allow for extended rows, however like the 7x7x7 its slightly acorn shaped, but it looks neat. I've got all the main pieces modeled in 3ds max and now I just need to figure out how exactly to design the core of the beast. I think I've made some progress and a Sphere seems appropriate for the core. I considered using a typical skeb mechanism for the 3 axis rotator however I don't see a way to securly fasten the center edge pieces in a usable way.

Right now as I have it, the corner pieces slide around the core on special traks like the pieces for the 4x4 cubes.I just need to now find a way toclip in the second (and possible third layers) I'll see if I get anywhere, if I do I'll be sure to upload screenshots!

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 Post subject: Re: Help with designing a puzzle *Update at bottom*
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Just wanted to let everyone know how the progress on my double layer tetrahedron is coming along.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:45 pm 
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Fantastic! Are you planning on getting it 3D prototyped?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:08 pm 
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This looks really promising. I do hope that you are able to get it prototyped and "born" into the real world!

Will the central triangles need to be mounted on a spindle so that the whole thing can be assembled?

Excellent work.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:30 pm 
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WOW !!! THIS IS REALLY IMPRESSIVE !!! :D

CRAZY STUFF


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:40 am 
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Hopefully the pieces will turn out alright. I'm remodeling each of them into several separate pieces to allow for easy assembly. also I'm thinking of a way to include some ball bearings to make turning even easier.

I believe the most stable structure in this puzzle will be to connect the corners to the central mechanism, which will be a skweb core, or a customized skewb core. I need to buy and dissect one to see how it actually works. I think it needs to be custom, because the average core for a skewb is tiny, and this puzzle has alot of mass, and I think will need a thicker mechanism.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:01 pm 
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The model is effectively a master Halpern-Meyer Pyramid. I presume that means that the mechanism could just as easily be used to model a Master Skewb or any of the other Skewb-based modifications?

I suspect that the skewb core would be strong enough, but this would make the puzzle large; I guess the same size as a normal H-P Pyramid based on a normal skewb core. I don't have experience of building mechanisms, but I think you could use a keychain Skewb core as the central mechanism which would keep the size and weight to a sensible level. Mefferts are also planning (I believe?) to release the H-P pyramid, I suspect that this will be based on the keychain mechanism.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:19 pm 
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Thanks for the advice. however where the heck do I get a key chain skewb? I cant find any on teh web.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Does it mean that you could mske the Master Skewb with this principe ???


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:02 pm 
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No idea what a master skewb would look like, but maybe?

so far this thing is hovering between 5-5 1/2 inches in diameter, I hope thats not too big

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Well, it's kind of big, but this puzzle is amazing !!! But if I would be you, I would make it the same size than a pyraminx.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:52 pm 
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The problem I am running into is that if I make it any smaller then the screws will be thicker than the neck holding the corners onto the the 2 inner paths, I'm trying to find a way so that I can assemble the structure and then tighten the screws, which means the corner tips will have to be snapped on after assembly.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:19 pm 
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If it can fit in a box that measures 12" on each edge, then it's fine.

You'd be the first person to have a working version of this puzzle. You can worry about making it smaller after a few prototypes. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:31 pm 
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first working version? have there been designs for it before?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:35 pm 
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The concept has be done before.

http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... ra_fv7.htm

But that's it. You're the first to have any 3d plans for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:41 am 
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Bah, even more design problems! this time its more of a case of when I do get the pieces printed, I have no idea how I'm gonna be able to mold the corner pieces and keep the hole for the screw in place. I might have to actually drill it every time, which means I need to find the right kind of equipment..... damn this.....

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:27 pm 
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Maybe you can collaborate in a similar fashion to the two recent Gigaminxs. Aleh created one, but the design was by Adam "Puzzlemaster42" Cowan. The other one was Tyler Fox (designer) and Geert Hellings (Printer).

Perhaps someone would be interested in helping you make this puzzle tangible. It's up to you though.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:03 pm 
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thats sweet when do you think it will be done?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:22 pm 
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No idea when it'll be "done" I'm in no way prepared to do massive molding/sanding and assembly in my current apartment. I have no hard tools to work with. hopefully I'll be moving into a new place soon or I can wait for it to get warmer and work in the garage. Molding and casting resin alone seems possible in my small apt, but I don't think it'll go quickly.

A lot of time this week has gone into figuring out how to mold the corner pieces. which is pretty damn hard since theres so little room to put the screws, and I may have to split it into 3 separate pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:10 pm 
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Drewseph wrote:
which is pretty damn hard since theres so little room to put the screws

What size screws are you using? I use 0-80 screws for my Neon puzzle and they are pretty small. They make 00-100 screws as well which are even thinner. I use 0-80 5/8" screws for the body of my puzzle, but know you can get at least up to 1" long in this size. You can find some at a local hardware store (you may have to search their bins a bit) if you want to see their size. http://www.smallparts.com sells them in bulk if you decide you like them.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:30 pm 
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Thanks Dave, though length isn't the problem, (in fact I may need to finder 1.5" screws or more) the problem is thickness!

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Drewseph wrote:
Thanks Dave, though length isn't the problem, (in fact I may need to finder 1.5" screws or more) the problem is thickness!

If you need thinner than 0-80 I think you may need to size up your puzzle or redesign. 0-80 screws have a 1mm thread diameter and only 2mm screw head diameter. That is pretty small, and if your plastic parts can't accomdate that then they are possibly too thin alread.

From your diagram it seems you should be able to hold things together from the sides, not the corners, or am I missing something? If you need to do the corners I suppose a two part could work if you cut through half of the outside corner. That would give you plenty of width around the screw head and I think you can fit a 1mm diameter hole though that piece, can't you?

If you can't find thin screws long enough to reach the core, you can probably look into having threaded metal tubes extend from a core. These could be quite thin and strong and reach the screws.

Just some thoughts,

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:28 pm 
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Thanks for the advice Dave. The problem with the puzzle at the moment is that I want to keep the edges under 5.5" in length, an even now thats pretty big. I have found a way to split my corners up to allow for molding and it should work out.

As for the sides, I'm not sure that the sides would hold up in supporting the structure, I'd have to redesign the piece parts closest to the core, which would be more of a pain but doable. at the moment I need to get precise measurements of a screw and spring. I think my current measurements might be off. how thin would you say the resin can get before becoming unstable?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Drewseph wrote:
Thanks for the advice Dave. The problem with the puzzle at the moment is that I want to keep the edges under 5.5" in length, an even now thats pretty big. I have found a way to split my corners up to allow for molding and it should work out.

As for the sides, I'm not sure that the sides would hold up in supporting the structure, I'd have to redesign the piece parts closest to the core, which would be more of a pain but doable. at the moment I need to get precise measurements of a screw and spring. I think my current measurements might be off. how thin would you say the resin can get before becoming unstable?

I don't really have any experience with casting parts, so I'll let the mold makers on the list answer this one.

As for size, the 1mm/2mm measurements I gave for the 0-80 screws is not exact, but is really quite close and probably good enough for a master part. Smaller is better as it won't be hard to bore it bigger with a drilll should it be a tiny bit too small. But visit a hardware store and check for yourself, in single quantities they are only about 15 cents each. Try an ACE or smaller store, the big stores (Home Depot, Orchard Supply Hardware) generally only stock down to size 2-56.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:27 am 
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I may be missing something here, but I can't see (from your drawings) how it would be a problem holding the puzzle together from the four central triangles rather than the corners. I think the puzzle might be more stable not less, as the long screws that would be needed to hold the corners in may have problems causing a "twist" as the puzzle is rotated and I think that might cause the puzzle to distort and jam.

The relationship between the centres and corners is identical to the relationship between the fixed and floating corners in a skewb mechanism. I can see no reason why your "master" puzzle shouldn't work with the "fixed" and "floating" corners interchanged too, and I think the puzzle would be more stable and easier to turn without jamming. This should also make finding appropriate screws much easier.

I do have a little experiience with moulding parts, but the strength of resin (I think) varies from type to type. I get mine from a UK company called Tiranti, who are excellent and very reliable(http://www.tiranti.co.uk/), and they have a wide variety of resin. One of these (http://www.tiranti.co.uk/subdivision_pr ... vision=344) is advertised as having nylon-like properties which has much greater strength in thin parts. However, I have tried this and find it difficult to obtain a clean smooth finish with this resin which makes it less suitable for externally visible parts. I am sure similar companies must operate in the US.

I still think there may be problems actually assembling the finished pieces from the design. Have you thought about how it will be put together?

I await your progress with interest, this is an exciting project!

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:30 pm 
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there are a few things stopping me worm using the centers as support ( i think)

The most major part is that I think its too small a piece to be able to support the stress of all the pieces, and if it doesn't pop off then won't the corners be so lose that (just like the Chinese megamix) it could pop apart with relative ease?

As for jamming that would be a concern, but thats something lots of puzzles can do, however I think it shouldn't be too bad (I hope) I think I'll look into making a center based support mechanism this weekend.

I have not thought heavily about assembly, but I had the idea it shouldn't be too hard to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual layer tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:46 am 
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just an update since its been a while and I've changed alot...

I've decided to go with your recommendations in making it a center supported puzzle rather than an corner. Above you'll fine my finalized design. I'm attempting to smooth out everything as much as I can but does this even matter? would you recommend just having all jagged pieces and sand them down by hand? or would smoothing out before printing making a difference? thanks for the help! (so close to printing!!!!)

Also, I'm in need of help naming the puzzle, any recommendations?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual layer tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:08 pm 
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Drewseph's Master Tetrahdron? Not very original, but it suits the purpose :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual layer tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Drewseph's Dual Layer Tetrahedron

(I'm really original)

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Dual layer tetrahedron
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:36 pm 
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If it comes to naming, it seems to be a Master Tetrahedron.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:28 am 
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The Master tetrahedron pieces have arrived! Now comes the preparation for molding and then assembly!

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:36 am 
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pls post pics of the pieces :D

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:38 am 
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but but... I did.....?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:26 pm 
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khjs534 wrote:
pls post pics of the pieces :D

Check the first post. He edited them into there.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron (now with 100% more kitty)
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:31 pm 
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KITTY!

Oh, man this thing is going to be Awesome.

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 Post subject: Kitty CAD File to be published? :| :) :D
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:26 am 
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I'm following this thread with great interest - it must be exciting to have all those complex pieces arrive ready made.

I'm not familiar with 3D printing so I hope these questions are OK :)
I'm curious about the sanding - is this on the inside or the outside of the puzzle? And what's the reason: fit or finish?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron (now with 100% more kitty)
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:28 am 
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Everything needs to be sanded, its got lots of thin lines, from all of the layering of the plastic during the printing. also a lot of the edges are really jagged and uneven, so, while all of the faces are perfect, the edges are now, hence the sanding.

I can see a possible revision in the future, one of the pieces seems to be way too small, but I'm gonna follow through with this and see how it turns out. At leaste I know how thin the plastic can get ^_^

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron (now with 100% more kitty)
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:51 am 
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Here's something I've tried on thin/weak pieces.
You can strengthen them by casting small pieces of metal into the piece where it could break There was a very thin part on a piece I made so I took finishing nails and cast them directly into the piece. It worked pretty well: they haven't broken yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron (now with 100% more kitty)
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:29 am 
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Where did you have it printed?

I've looked through this thread several times and haven't seen the answer, so if it is there I guess I can't read.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron (now with 100% more kitty)
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:11 am 
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I got my pieces printed at fdmonly.com they are cheap as hell compared to other places. which is a great thing!

Tyler, I'll try using metal if my initial casts don't work out, the shaft on the center pieces are thin, but they seem to be a very sturdy kind of thin, my corner+'s are a bit too thin, so I might just reprint that piece to be thicker, and then sand down the other pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Master tetrahedron (now with 100% more kitty)
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:57 pm
So the molding has begun! this is my first mold attempt, so before I go all out I'm doing one piece (a center support)

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*Edit* WOOT page breaker!

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