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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:37 pm

Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:53 pm
TheCubingKyle wrote:
Regarding the earlier bandaging/unbandaging argument, I have some proposed definitions.

Bandaging: Restricting the turns of a puzzle that would be allowed by the core mechanism. In a bandaged cube, you can state that it is a bandaged 3x3 because the mechanism logically allows each edge and corner to exist individually. A cuboid bandages when the pieces that are extended past the core mechanism are no longer adjacent to other extensions, and now no longer part of a fully cyclical mechanism. Basically, nonextended pieces are blocking the path that the extensions demand.

Unbandaging: Creating new cuts to allow a puzzle to operate fully based on the logical cuts of the original mechanism. The Skewb+2x2 has visible cuts that are turnable until you shaoe-shift and jumble, and then are blocked internally. This puzzle has been unbandaged by creating internal cuts to allow logical turns based on the original cuts that are invisibly bandaged. A 6x6 is NOT an unbandaged 3x3 because the 3x3 mechanism does not logically allow these additional layers.

A 6x6 can be bandaged into 3x3 functionality, yes. But requiring certain layers to turn together is only an external restriction. If you took apart a 6x6 bandaged into 3x3 functionality, you would see where the edge wings and centers would logically be able to separated and turned on individual layers. A normal 3x3 has no insinuation that it could be turned into a 6x6 based solely on its mechanism.

So. Is the Hyper Octocube an unbandaged Bermuda Cube? I don't have much experience with the Bermuda Cubes but I say no. The mechanism has nothing to do with bermuda cubes other than their functionality can be emulated by bandaging turns. But this is in the same way a 6x6 can be bandaged into a 3x3 but not vice-versa. It's like rectangles and squares definition. A Bermuda mechanism could NOT sustain the amount of cuts and turns as this puzzle, and therefore a Bermuda cube cannot be cut to allow the puzzle to operate fully based on the logical cuts of the hyper octocube.

Make sense?

Yup. I really want to get some opinions on wether the moves that shapeshift the puzzle would be considered shapeshifting, jumbling, or bandaging moves and wether they are doctrinaire or not (I think this was brought up by Eitan on one of the videos). The cube can be sufficiently scrambled without making these types of moves and I would suggest that anyone interested in solving this puzzle attempt to solve it without the shapeshifting moves first as it is considerable difficult even without these from my experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:09 pm

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
themathkid wrote:
TheCubingKyle wrote:
Regarding the earlier bandaging/unbandaging argument, I have some proposed definitions.

This conversation was ended for a reason. Please move this to a new topic or PM if you wish to continue the conversation. This thread has been hijacked plenty already.

A conversation isn't "ended" just because you want it to be, mathkid. By all means, if you feel this is an inappropriate place to discuss a new puzzle's properties, and since it seems to be causing you such distress, perhaps you could create a new topic yourself? Novel idea!

Anyway, CubingKyle, you have taken the words right out of my mouth! You very articulately stated the points I was trying to make, and I think your definition is a good limitation on what was previously something vague and rather arbitrary. I like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:50 am

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
In general this thread did go pretty off topic and sadly not in the friendliest tone but if the original thread author is content to continue it (and the tone is corrected) I think it is reasonable.

Let's be nice, people. Meditate on rule #6 and consider that this admin is already perhaps a bit tired of such tone.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:52 am

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:42 am
I am in the process of a creating a full-blown thread on this topic. Hopefully, I will have it up tonight. Lots to talk about, actually. Look for it soon!

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:34 am

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
DLitwin wrote:
consider that this admin is already perhaps a bit tired of such tone.
Trust me I know. I'm numb myself at the moment. Anyways here is my 2 cents:

Bandaging alone already has multiple definitions here. It can mean gluing pieces together. It can mean adding gears to restrict movement. It can mean other restrictions like Oskar's Alternating Cube for example. That can be considered a bandaged 2x2x2. Due to all these meanings... people have already started using terms like "glue bandaging" for example. So I'm ok with multiple definitions of unbandaging as well. Just make sure its clear in the context what is meant (provide your definition if necessary) and I think you are good. Another option which some have also taken is to stop making new terms and to start using more established mathematical terms. Some of these I'm not 100% sure I know what they mean myself. Vertex transitive being a great example where I know just enough that I *think* I know what it means. In this case the terms people could use are subset and super set. The 6x6x6 is a super set of the 3x3x3 and the 3x3x3 is a subset of the 6x6x6. I think Bram is just using super set and unbandaged to mean the exact same thing. Though some want a more specific meaning to the term unbandaged. I'm ok with that too. I really doubt you'll get everyone to agree as the way people have been using it in the past is pretty well established and many will be reluctant to change. This is very much like trying to define the term Order which has been debated here for years and there are still 3 or 4 definitions that people use. Though I only see 2 at the twistypedia site.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:01 am

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 pm
1) I eagerly await the thread on definitions of bandaging and unbandaging, because I'd like some opinions on my proposals.

2)Zem, I think if it changes shape, we can safely say it's a shape shifter as for whether or not it's jumbling, I bet Bram could answer sufficiently although I think of jumbling differently than he does. Perhaps having my own definitions of things is contrary to the progress of the community, so I'll wait and see what everyone thinks on the topic of "Super Octocube Jumbling"

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:08 am

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Continued bandaging/unbandaging discussion now has its own thread here: Defining "Bandaging" and "Unbandaging"

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:16 pm

Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:53 pm
The puzzle is now available from ShapeWays for purchase if is anyone is interested: http://shpws.me/pLYN

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:22 am

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Congrats on making this insane puzzle design! I rememebr suggesting this to David Pitcher once I saw his Octo Cube.
He said that your Super Octo Cube must have fudging and voids in it. Is that true?

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:46 pm

Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:53 pm
Sigurd wrote:
Congrats on making this insane puzzle design! I rememebr suggesting this to David Pitcher once I saw his Octo Cube.
He said that your Super Octo Cube must have fudging and voids in it. Is that true?

There are no "voids" between the pieces except for the hollow ball core. You can see the arrangements of inner pieces in the picture provided below. I'm not quite sure what you are referring to by "fudging" as well so I can't say one way or the other.

This is the final post showing off this design but I felt it was needed to show of the finished product. Here are some nice pictures of the final prototype version of the puzzle stickered and in white as well as the actual final version of the puzzle dyed in a nice black. I am also including a link to the museum entry, a new video showcasing the final black version, and the shapeways page. Thanks everyone again for the help and comments through the development of this puzzle.

ShapeWays: http://shpws.me/pLYN

Now time for the pictures:

A Single Layer of the Puzzle:

Stickered Prototype:

Sequence of Turns:

Properly Scrambling the Puzzle:

A Cool Pattern:

The Final Version of the Cube in Black:

Regards,
Zem (Jake Gaudet)

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:56 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
Hey zem,

Any whiff of mass production discussions?

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:48 am

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
TheCubingKyle wrote:
A 6x6 can be bandaged into 3x3 functionality, yes. But requiring certain layers to turn together is only an external restriction. If you took apart a 6x6 bandaged into 3x3 functionality, you would see where the edge wings and centers would logically be able to separated and turned on individual layers. A normal 3x3 has no insinuation that it could be turned into a 6x6 based solely on its mechanism.
But here is the thing, are we talking about a puzzle functionality or a puzzle mechanism? For example, suppose you had a 3x3x3 which used metal pieces attached to a spherical magnetic ball core. This would function perfectly well. And if you now wanted to make a 6x6x6, couldn't you could just cut the pieces in half i.e. unbandage them, thus making a functional 6x6x6 puzzle?

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:35 am

Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:53 pm
AndyChilly wrote:
Hey zem,

Any whiff of mass production discussions?

As seen on the previous page, MF8 has apparently had this design for a while and has plans to possibly release it in the future. I'm not sure if anyone here has one yet, but does anyone have a clue how similar the Dyan Wheel of Wisdom might be? The top circle portion of the cube has the same geometric pattern as my puzzle although I believe it does not shapeshift or hold the same solving properties.

Gus wrote:
TheCubingKyle wrote:
A 6x6 can be bandaged into 3x3 functionality, yes. But requiring certain layers to turn together is only an external restriction. If you took apart a 6x6 bandaged into 3x3 functionality, you would see where the edge wings and centers would logically be able to separated and turned on individual layers. A normal 3x3 has no insinuation that it could be turned into a 6x6 based solely on its mechanism.
But here is the thing, are we talking about a puzzle functionality or a puzzle mechanism? For example, suppose you had a 3x3x3 which used metal pieces attached to a spherical magnetic ball core. This would function perfectly well. And if you now wanted to make a 6x6x6, couldn't you could just cut the pieces in half i.e. unbandage them, thus making a functional 6x6x6 puzzle?

I do agree with you but this thread was created for discussion on the Bandaging and Unbandaging topic to remove clutter from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26291

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:56 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
I have a Wheel Of Wisdom on its way but It may yet be a week until it arrives.

I assume its the circle faces on the WoW that keep its shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:04 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:46 pm
Zem wrote:
As seen on the previous page, MF8 has apparently had this design for a while and has plans to possibly release it in the future. I'm not sure if anyone here has one yet, but does anyone have a clue how similar the Dyan Wheel of Wisdom might be? The top circle portion of the cube has the same geometric pattern as my puzzle although I believe it does not shapeshift or hold the same solving properties.

Well you made a complex puzzle like the Super OctoCube, so I would have thought you know The WoW is more like a cross cube with circle faces that can move in increments of 45Â° . So it is a 5 layer puzzle and has a inner 3x3x3. Your puzzle is a 3 layer puzzle that jumbles and is harder to solve I guess (and very different).

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:18 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 pm
The Wheel if Wisdom contains the cuts of a truncated triakis octohedron, if I remember correctly, and your is something different no?.While 6 faces can turn in 45 degree increments, they do so without intersecting with other 45 degree faces, making reduction or commutation a much easier and isolated process.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCubePosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:05 pm

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 am
Just received Zem's Super Octocube. Very impressed and very terrified. Unboxing video here for those interested.
Attachment:

2.jpg [ 83.77 KiB | Viewed 453 times ]

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