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 Post subject: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:23 pm 
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This was posted on Konstantinos Verdes Facebook Page.

It reportedly does not have the clicking mechanism, and they will be making a pillowed and flat version.

Hopefully more info to come.

-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:31 pm 
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a little bit too late for christmas, but hey, good news for we collectors (and bad news for our wallets) :D


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:32 pm 
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I'm sorry if I sound out of line at all, but is it generally acceptable to copy images or text across from someone's Facebook page to a wider Internet audience?

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Reminiscent of the whole Randi Zuckerberg thing, but if it was secretive I would think Konstantinos would not have posted it and made it publicly available.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:49 pm 
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No clicking mechanism. Meaning not adhering to their original patent. Possibly meaning another debacle like their 3x3 release?

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:19 pm 
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FINALLY!!! Oh, man I hope it's good. So excited!

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Yes! I look forward to owning this. I've been waiting for this puzzle for almost as long as I've known about the V-Cube company.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Eh. I didn't bother with the V2 or V3 and I'll pass on this too. I want new puzzles, not different versions of puzzles I already have.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:40 pm 
Yeah I dunno, not having a clicking mechanism. I've seen a picture of that coming from Verde's himself. That means it isn't going by their design again, kinda like the V3... with the torpedo's and all. I mean, it's cool if they have a deal with people to exchange ideas, or maybe they've been copied so much that they take advanced ideas from KO companies and apply it to their own because that KO company doesn't have a patent to break, but if that's the case, I really hope that they offer some kind of explanation to it this time, instead of just banning and blocking every single person that asks about it... just like they did last year. I would honestly have a lot more respect for them if they just told people why they are going against their patents and using other people's ideas, especially after they went after so many people for doing the same to them. Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I probably am, but V Cubes refuse to tell the truth about it, and that's why it's missing.

Then again, maybe they have a completely new mechanism that hasn't been done before, but that patent would be public and I sure can't find it....


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:57 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
Eh. I didn't bother with the V2 or V3 and I'll pass on this too. I want new puzzles, not different versions of puzzles I already have.

Could not agree more. All the hype about big cubes, and so far only 6 and 7.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Remember, they actually did settle with Dayan, and Dayan was the original user of torpedoes. You can't call anyone knock offs if clearly they've come to an agreement on their designs.

I'm happy for the 4x4x4. I can't stand any of the existing ones and they all seem like they were rushed through production and have too many flaws. V-Cubes have always taken their time, and since every single 4x4x4 either pops a ton or is too tight, I'm thinking V-Cubes deserves another look. I don't care if this puzzle is a direct copy of X-Cube, and you know why? Because that would still make it the V-Mech we've all come to love. V-Cubes are high-quality cubes and every one of them makes a viable contender for being the best of its kind. The 3x3x3 uses torpedoes because that's a great idea. Dayan uses V-Mech because that's a great idea. The X-Cube uses MeMyselfAndPi's pin mod because that's a great idea. They're all great ideas. If they stuck with the products exactly as they were in the drawings, then they would not be able to compete with all these great ideas, and that's why these ideas are being shared.

If "It has the quality of the V2, V3 and V5", as the Konstantinos Verdes himself claims, then I can expect a puzzle that does not misalign, does not require special care to avoid popping, and feels slick and smooth. There isn't a single 4x4x4 out there that fits this description and I think it's about time to change that. I cannot stand playing with any 4x4x4. I've played with 6x6x6s that were far superior to any 4x4x4 I've tried out.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:19 pm 
Ender Delphiki wrote:
Remember, they actually did settle with Dayan, and Dayan was the original user of torpedoes. You can't call anyone knock offs if clearly they've come to an agreement on their designs.

I'm happy for the 4x4x4. I can't stand any of the existing ones and they all seem like they were rushed through production and have too many flaws. V-Cubes have always taken their time, and since every single 4x4x4 either pops a ton or is too tight, I'm thinking V-Cubes deserves another look. I don't care if this puzzle is a direct copy of X-Cube, and you know why? Because that would still make it the V-Mech we've all come to love. V-Cubes are high-quality cubes and every one of them makes a viable contender for being the best of its kind. The 3x3x3 uses torpedoes because that's a great idea. Dayan uses V-Mech because that's a great idea. The X-Cube uses MeMyselfAndPi's pin mod because that's a great idea. They're all great ideas. If they stuck with the products exactly as they were in the drawings, then they would not be able to compete with all these great ideas, and that's why these ideas are being shared.

If "It has the quality of the V2, V3 and V5", as the Konstantinos Verdes himself claims, then I can expect a puzzle that does not misalign, does not require special care to avoid popping, and feels slick and smooth. There isn't a single 4x4x4 out there that fits this description and I think it's about time to change that. I cannot stand playing with any 4x4x4. I've played with 6x6x6s that were far superior to any 4x4x4 I've tried out.


A agree, pretty much all 4x4's out there are bad. Same with 6x6's in my opinion. However, that still doesn't explain why they take somebody else's ideas and use them for their own without just saying so. I mean, if there isn't anything wrong with it, why not just say it instead of banning everybody who asks? The fact that they ban everybody who asks about these kinds of things kinda shows that they have something to hide. That's just my opinion. However, I'm sure most people know I'm not fond of V Cubes even in the slightest bit after the issues they've given me. Regardless of my opinion of them, I do hope that this cube is good and that they provide some knowledge as to why it doesn't click IF it doesn't click.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Ender Delphiki wrote:
V-Cubes are high-quality cubes
You must have different V-Cubes than me. I own 9 of them (3 each of the V5, V6, and V7) and I would never consider any of them to be high quality. They are all too loose and will pop at times. But they use rivets instead of screws so this can't be fixed. They all have surface defects in the plastic such as bumps and air bubbles. Some of the cubies which are made of 2 pieces have noticeable gaps and are just not glued together well.

As far as quality goes I put V-Cubes towards the bottom of the major brands. I play with my Eastsheen 5x5x5s more often that my V5s.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Ender Delphiki wrote:
I'm happy for the 4x4x4. I can't stand any of the existing ones and they all seem like they were rushed through production and have too many flaws. V-Cubes have always taken their time, and since every single 4x4x4 either pops a ton or is too tight, I'm thinking V-Cubes deserves another look. I don't care if this puzzle is a direct copy of X-Cube, and you know why? Because that would still make it the V-Mech we've all come to love. V-Cubes are high-quality cubes and every one of them makes a viable contender for being the best of its kind. The 3x3x3 uses torpedoes because that's a great idea. Dayan uses V-Mech because that's a great idea. The X-Cube uses MeMyselfAndPi's pin mod because that's a great idea. They're all great ideas. If they stuck with the products exactly as they were in the drawings, then they would not be able to compete with all these great ideas, and that's why these ideas are being shared.

If "It has the quality of the V2, V3 and V5", as the Konstantinos Verdes himself claims, then I can expect a puzzle that does not misalign, does not require special care to avoid popping, and feels slick and smooth. There isn't a single 4x4x4 out there that fits this description and I think it's about time to change that. I cannot stand playing with any 4x4x4. I've played with 6x6x6s that were far superior to any 4x4x4 I've tried out.

Honestly, I disagree with this. There are good 4x4's out there- you just have to work on them a little bit.

-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:32 pm 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Ender Delphiki wrote:
Remember, they actually did settle with Dayan, and Dayan was the original user of torpedoes. You can't call anyone knock offs if clearly they've come to an agreement on their designs.

I'm happy for the 4x4x4. I can't stand any of the existing ones and they all seem like they were rushed through production and have too many flaws. V-Cubes have always taken their time, and since every single 4x4x4 either pops a ton or is too tight, I'm thinking V-Cubes deserves another look. I don't care if this puzzle is a direct copy of X-Cube, and you know why? Because that would still make it the V-Mech we've all come to love. V-Cubes are high-quality cubes and every one of them makes a viable contender for being the best of its kind. The 3x3x3 uses torpedoes because that's a great idea. Dayan uses V-Mech because that's a great idea. The X-Cube uses MeMyselfAndPi's pin mod because that's a great idea. They're all great ideas. If they stuck with the products exactly as they were in the drawings, then they would not be able to compete with all these great ideas, and that's why these ideas are being shared.

If "It has the quality of the V2, V3 and V5", as the Konstantinos Verdes himself claims, then I can expect a puzzle that does not misalign, does not require special care to avoid popping, and feels slick and smooth. There isn't a single 4x4x4 out there that fits this description and I think it's about time to change that. I cannot stand playing with any 4x4x4. I've played with 6x6x6s that were far superior to any 4x4x4 I've tried out.


A agree, pretty much all 4x4's out there are bad. Same with 6x6's in my opinion. However, that still doesn't explain why they take somebody else's ideas and use them for their own without just saying so. I mean, if there isn't anything wrong with it, why not just say it instead of banning everybody who asks? The fact that they ban everybody who asks about these kinds of things kinda shows that they have something to hide. That's just my opinion. However, I'm sure most people know I'm not fond of V Cubes even in the slightest bit after the issues they've given me. Regardless of my opinion of them, I do hope that this cube is good and that they provide some knowledge as to why it doesn't click IF it doesn't click.

My best guess to answer your questions would be three little words- tit for tat.
In reply to others, for me the V-Cube 7 stands out as the best quality puzzle ever made.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Ender Delphiki wrote:

I'm happy for the 4x4x4. I can't stand any of the existing ones and they all seem like they were rushed through production and have too many flaws. V-Cubes have always taken their time, and since every single 4x4x4 either pops a ton or is too tight, I'm thinking V-Cubes deserves another look. I don't care if this puzzle is a direct copy of X-Cube, and you know why? Because that would still make it the V-Mech we've all come to love. V-Cubes are high-quality cubes and every one of them makes a viable contender for being the best of its kind. The 3x3x3 uses torpedoes because that's a great idea. Dayan uses V-Mech because that's a great idea. The X-Cube uses MeMyselfAndPi's pin mod because that's a great idea. They're all great ideas. If they stuck with the products exactly as they were in the drawings, then they would not be able to compete with all these great ideas, and that's why these ideas are being shared.

If "It has the quality of the V2, V3 and V5", as the Konstantinos Verdes himself claims, then I can expect a puzzle that does not misalign, does not require special care to avoid popping, and feels slick and smooth. There isn't a single 4x4x4 out there that fits this description and I think it's about time to change that. I cannot stand playing with any 4x4x4. I've played with 6x6x6s that were far superior to any 4x4x4 I've tried out.


V-Cubes has not always taken their time with products, it's why we got the awful mess we did when the V-Cube 3 came out, besides that, how many times has a V-cube came where it feels extremely tight, too many to count. I personally don't think they deserve another chance, not after all the awful customer quality, to me it feels like they don't care how bad the product is, as long as you buy it. Besides that, I believe there is a 4x4, mind you it's considered to be a "K.O"s, that is made not to pop and is pretty dang smooth that does infact meet that description you mention. Though I must give credit where it is due, the V-2, V-5, and V-7 are all pretty amazing cubes.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:52 pm 
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All right gentlemen. I'd like all this speculation about whether this cube is a KO or not to stop. No one has seen it yet than can give any difinitive answers. Right now it is just spatting in bad form. Until we see a video or one of us gets our hands in it we need to stay level headed.

I realize some don't like the v-cubes and we are all entitled to our opinions but lets keep it civil. There really is no need for the nastiness I know won't be posted in future.

Throughout all my conversations with Konstantinos never have I once heard him say he just wanted to sell puzzles without regard to what others thought. I read the posts on his Facebook wall and to me some were downright rude. But that's only my opinion. Take it as you will. But please remember that we wouldn't have the higher order cubes if it weren't for V-cubes. And if nothing else they deserve respect for that so try to keep the conversstion civil.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
Eh. I didn't bother with the V2 or V3 and I'll pass on this too. I want new puzzles, not different versions of puzzles I already have.


This. It's a 30 year old puzzle. Give us something new to get excited about, not something that's been done a hundred times already.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:50 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
Volitar Prime wrote:
Eh. I didn't bother with the V2 or V3 and I'll pass on this too. I want new puzzles, not different versions of puzzles I already have.


This. It's a 30 year old puzzle. Give us something new to get excited about, not something that's been done a hundred times already.
I tend to agree with you. I'd much rather see non-NxNxN puzzles.

That being said, every 4x4x4 on the market has problems. If Dayan and others had the "move on already" attitude we wouldn't see the amazing 3x3x3 speed cubes we have today and the sub-7-second world records.

There is still plenty of room for innovation with new puzzles as well as innovation bringing improvements to existing puzzles.

A company needs to stay in business and the market for a good 4x4x4 is huge. I don't blame them for bringing a new product to the market at all.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:10 am 
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The whole knock off thing has its reasons, but I just don't see why people can't collaborate. In my opinion, the fact that V-cube attacks anything inspired by their ideas makes me not want to buy one. Correct me if I'm getting this mixed up but this is what I see.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:25 am 
katsmom wrote:
All right gentlemen. I'd like all this speculation about whether this cube is a KO or not to stop. No one has seen it yet than can give any difinitive answers. Right now it is just spatting in bad form. Until we see a video or one of us gets our hands in it we need to stay level headed.

I realize some don't like the v-cubes and we are all entitled to our opinions but lets keep it civil. There really is no need for the nastiness I know won't be posted in future.

Throughout all my conversations with Konstantinos never have I once heard him say he just wanted to sell puzzles without regard to what others thought. I read the posts on his Facebook wall and to me some were downright rude. But that's only my opinion. Take it as you will. But please remember that we wouldn't have the higher order cubes if it weren't for V-cubes. And if nothing else they deserve respect for that so try to keep the conversstion civil.


The fact that Verde's himself says it does NOT have the clicking mechanism even though the patent does is going to start this kind of discussion. Am I wrong? I don't think anybody here said it's a KO, at least I haven't read that. Honestly I wouldn't believe it anyways, like I said in a previous post, maybe it's a new design, maybe they are working with somebody else and trading ideas, but absolutely no explanations from V Cubes just seems..... wrong. Especially after going after so many companies for copying them. This isn't a hate message towards V Cubes, I'm not saying this cube or any of their cubes are KO's, I'm just stating that the majority of the speed cubing community was pretty mad at V Cubes for trying to have Dayan taken off the market, only to come out with a guhong clone at best. It just seems very hypocritical of them and any explanation to this would probably give them more respect from the community. It just seems that every time somebody writes something of this nature on the forum, somebody accuses them of not being civil and starts sticking up for them like we've done something bad and terrible by discussing CUBING MATTERS, and not violating any rules from I can see.

So when Verde's announces that the next product that comes out obviously doesn't follow the patents for the second time in a row, it makes people like me, and MANY others want to know why. I'm sure if they didn't ban and block people for asking why, some people like myself and MANY others, wouldn't really care all that much. It's how they treat the public. So when people discuss this we're what? Told not to? We're not civil? LOL Sorry, if I'm out of line just tell me, but that kinda makes me laugh a little bit. I apologize for my rant.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:49 am 
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puzzle_weaver wrote:
The whole knock off thing has its reasons, but I just don't see why people can't collaborate. In my opinion, the fact that V-cube attacks anything inspired by their ideas makes me not want to buy one. Correct me if I'm getting this mixed up but this is what I see.
When you spend years and tens of thousands of dollars following the law to get patent protection only to have it blatantly ignored and have your market stolen, it is a bit much to ask that you would collaborate with those who stole from you. And given their actions, why would those stealing from you have any incentive to collaborate when they are clearly comfortable simply taking?

This is a simplified version of the situation but should hopefully explain some of the background and why attitudes are what they have become.

Not everyone who has put out a puzzle that we consider KO is in the same category. Some blatantly copy exactly the puzzles Verdes has put out. Others use ideas he has patented, and make interesting changes to them.

I would hope the latter category would collaborate with him to get a license (the proper route) to his design and then add their value by differentiating, but I don't think either side is interested.

As to why the 4x4x4: It has always been Verdes' plan to do the full series, and clearly the potential to recover costs is greater with the 4x4x4 than the higher order cubes. The market for an 8x8x8+ is far smaller and cost to produce much larger. There is an active speed cubing community that will have interest in a new 4x4x4 (regardless of their personal views).

As we have not seen the insides of the 4x4x4, I would request that we hold off on speculation. I say this same thing about other puzzles and for the same reasons: Speculation is rarely helpful, and for the short period until actual information is available just causes confusion.
One thing is certain: This clearly will not violate the Verdes patent regardless of how much or little it resembles the original patent drawings.

The issue of "copying from those who have copied from you" is awkward and has been discussed at great length in the V3 threads (look them up here and here if you have interest) so I'd prefer not to rehash the same arguments.

I'm sure there will be real reviews, pictures and analysis soon enough, and I look forward to it.

Dave :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:25 am 
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My first V-Cube was actually the V3.
I wanted to see how their quality is like (considering the price) and I was hugely disappointed.
I don't know the history, but from what I hear, the V-Cube company has played a revolutionary role in the twisty puzzles industry at some point. But to me it seems very unlikely that they will be able to sell a lot of their new products to the younger generation of cubers (which is the target market for 3x3 and 4x4 cubes). Because these are the same people who have been frustrated, and maybe even felt bullied, by V-Cubes for not being able to buy the quality speed cubes that were supposedly KOs.

(I'm not arguing that those weren't KOs, I'm saying why V-Cube's 3x3 and 4x4 releases at this point might have been bad business decisions for them.)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:28 am 
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[note: Verdes = the name, Verdes' = the possessive of Verdes]
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
The fact that Verde's himself says it does NOT have the clicking mechanism even though the patent does is going to start this kind of discussion. Am I wrong?
Indeed, that is something worth discussion, but please try to have some context. The 6x6x6 has been out for years with people crying out for some other locking mechanism. Is it such a terrible surprise he might have responded to such feedback? I don't think having a patent requires you to never improve upon it, and given the years since the original design this seems quite expected to me. He probably could have put out a 4x4x4 based on the old design long ago but why bother, given it would clearly suffer in the market and be decried as "old" technology.
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
I don't think anybody here said it's a KO, at least I haven't read that.
The implications have been quite strong. I believe the request was to hold off on speculative arguments until we have some more info. We all know how people feel about the V3 situation and don't need venting of those same grievances again before we even know if they are relevant.
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
... but absolutely no explanations from V Cubes just seems..... wrong.
Whether or not we consider it right or wrong, the history says this is very consistent. It is worth your time reading up on the history of the Verdes announcements and their reception. Without taking sides on those exchanges I think it is very clear Verdes got nothing but grief for speaking too soon. And had he shown his mechanism years before production (when he showed the prototypes), he wouldn't have even had the original window of market he had.
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Especially after going after so many companies for copying them.
I'm not sure I see any connection. Why should protecting his patent mean he wants to talk about his designs before the puzzles are out?
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
This isn't a hate message towards V Cubes, I'm not saying this cube or any of their cubes are KO's, I'm just stating that the majority of the speed cubing community was pretty mad at V Cubes for trying to have Dayan taken off the market, only to come out with a guhong clone at best. It just seems very hypocritical of them and any explanation to this would probably give them more respect from the community.
It isn't my place to defend or decry Verdes' PR choices but do consider that from their perspective the "speed cubing community" has been both very supportive (initially, given the great improvements the V-Cubes brought) and exceedingly fickle (in general not caring a bit for Verdes and supporting those stealing from him). Perhaps (watch out Dave, you may be speculating!) their plan is to simply put out their products and let the market decide their value. I might personally like to see more engagement but I can understand if there is reluctance to put their hand back in the fire after getting burned. But again, that is all related to the V3, and it isn't clear those same issues apply to this puzzle.
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
It just seems that every time somebody writes something of this nature on the forum, somebody accuses them of not being civil and starts sticking up for them like we've done something bad and terrible by discussing CUBING MATTERS, and not violating any rules from I can see.
I don't think there was an accusation of incivility but there was a request to "keep it civil". A bit like whether or not anyone has actually called it KO, I suppose, I understand why an implication could be perceived.
From the perspective of an Admin, these are the sorts of threads that move fast and when they go off the rails we have a lot of clean up to do. So please bear with us if we issue a preemptive reminder in the hopes of avoiding common past situations :)
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
So when Verde's announces that the next product that comes out obviously doesn't follow the patents for the second time in a row, it makes people like me, and MANY others want to know why. I'm sure if they didn't ban and block people for asking why, some people like myself and MANY others, wouldn't really care all that much. It's how they treat the public. So when people discuss this we're what? Told not to? We're not civil? LOL Sorry, if I'm out of line just tell me, but that kinda makes me laugh a little bit. I apologize for my rant.
Let's separate the "they didn't ban" from this site. I'm pretty sure you are talking about other forums or facebook or somewhere else because we're not doing that.

We are, however, just asking people not to launch off in directions that have caused friction before, particularly based only on assumptions. Valuable discussion is the point of this forum, and we're not trying to discourage that. But not all posts are productive discussion, and we do our best to keep things positive (this does not mean uncritical) and relevant.

Dave :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:43 am 
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pooya13 wrote:
I don't know the history, but from what I hear, the V-Cube company has played a revolutionary role in the twisty puzzles industry at some point.
I think this statement is representative of the greater portion of the speed cubing community, and I can see how it leads to the responses we often get. Really, how might one expect people to know the story without a bit of investigation? It's unfortunate, but inevitable I imagine. Search for posts by NEWCUBES to catch the early history (here is an early thread).

History has not been kind to the Verdes family, who indeed did revolutionize the puzzle community (not just "at some point", but who's influence benefits most every new puzzle being designed since). Their choice to follow the law and favor quality over time to market was not well rewarded. It is quite easy to be critical of their response when we haven't walked in their shoes, invested what they have invested and lost what they have lost. This is not a critique, defense or endorsement of any particular set of statements or actions on their part but an attempt at context.

Dave :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:30 am 
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Can we just look at any one of the other V-cube threads and be done with it? Frankly, I was hoping we wouldn't end up having the KO vs non-KO discussion.

V-cubes, the inspiration for most world record setting puzzles, is releasing a 4x4. Something the community has wanted for years! We should save the KO speculation and just wait and see.

The V-cube 3 was seriously under-rated in my opinion. I bought a non-diy pillowed one from a local puzzle shop, and if it hadn't been pillowed it might have been my main. (over several dayan cubes)

We know V-cubes has made great cubes, and we know that there is a need for a better 4x4 on the market. On top of all that, we will probably be able to recommend a great 4x4 to new cubers without having our posts blocked!

Personally, I'm just going to lay back, relax, and wait. :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:47 am 
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:52 am 
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I do not have to add much to Dave's posts. Here is just a personal memory:
I think it was in 2005 or 2006 when I stumbled upon an Internet message that there were plans to develop a 6x6x6. It was named "Olympic Cube" at that time. For decades I had read that it was plainly impossible to build a cube beyond the 5x5x5. I was very excited then and soon later I saw a picture of Georges Helms turning one of them.
Probably like many others who lived during the old Rubik's ages in the 80s, I thought a dream will come true.
I contacted info (at)olypicube.com in autumn 2006 via email and got back
Quote:
The release date of the O.C No5, No6a, No7 has not yet been defined.
OK, I had to wait almost two more years until I could order them, but I will never loose the feeling of high respect for Panagiotis Verdes. He has broken a barrier and a ton of later puzzles would not exist without him.

I have a lot of respect for many other designers as well, especially for Dayan (Daqing Bao), but I have no doubt that the puzzle world would be poorer without Verdes' invention.

I have never seen good reasons for discussions based on speculations rather than on facts.
Let's wait and see.

I will buy a Verdes 4x4x4 for sure and probably more out of historical reasons and because I want to show my respect.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:08 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
puzzle_weaver wrote:
The whole knock off thing has its reasons, but I just don't see why people can't collaborate. In my opinion, the fact that V-cube attacks anything inspired by their ideas makes me not want to buy one. Correct me if I'm getting this mixed up but this is what I see.
When you spend years and tens of thousands of dollars following the law to get patent protection only to have it blatantly ignored and have your market stolen, it is a bit much to ask that you would collaborate with those who stole from you.

By "people", I was referring to the knockoff brands and by "collaborate", I meant get permission. Before they realease anything, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:17 am 
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I wish people would be more appreciative of puzzles that are released/ to be released. Because at the end of the day, we will soon be able to buy a legitimate model of a puzzles that has been copied countless times, from it's original designer, who has worked very hard from start to finish.

The impression I get from a quite a lot of puzzlers is that they only care for what they know; i.e they are not aware of patents, original designers and knock offs. Which makes them seem to be very ignorant indeed. Yes, brand X may have brought out a 4x4x4 using the v-cube design, however the origin of that design remains the same. I know that echos the fundamentals of our knock-off policy, but people still do not understand this basic rule.

In the case of the 3x3x3, V-Cube were perfectly within their rights to design their 3x3x3 differently to what was described in their patent, as although visually it is different to their 3x3x3 design, it uses mechanics that are present in other puzzles they have patented, which is therefore their property. This may also be the case with their 4x4x4, which again, they are perfectly in their rights to do.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:30 am 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.

Nonsense. Your opinion reflects that of a good-size portion of the puzzle community. If there wasn't someone voicing that side, then there'd be no one with a need to voice the other side. By presenting your opinion, you inspire both sides of the argument to present their own logic, thereby giving a chance for other people to form their own opinions. Without people challenging others' thoughts, it'd be considerably harder to be educated in the topic.

When people go in and break what you said into pieces to rebuttle the parts, there's an obvious clue that people are actually listening to what you're saying. This forum's good about that.

[/offtopic]

Konrad wrote:
I will never loose the feeling of high respect for Panagiotis Verdes. He has broken a barrier and a ton of later puzzles would not exist without him.
...
I will buy a Verdes 4x4x4 for sure and probably more out of historical reasons and because I want to show my respect.

This. V-Cubes has only ever contributed positively to the community that I'm aware of. I may be wrong, but V-Cubes has never given me a reason to lose my respect for them.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Konrad wrote:

I think it was in 2005 or 2006 when I stumbled upon an Internet message that there were plans to develop a 6x6x6. It was named "Olympic Cube" at that time. For decades I had read that it was plainly impossible to build a cube beyond the 5x5x5.

This may be a bit off topic but I see this sort of statement a lot including on the V-Cubes website. V-Cubes never actually achieved what was thought to be impossible, they merely moved the goalposts to what we consider an NxNxN cube to be, ie to a state where pillowed and non proportional are accepted as NXNXN cubes. Instead of finding an answer they changed the question so to speak. I am pretty sure during a conversation with David Singmaster in 1980 he told me the 6x6x6 was impractical and anything higher would be impossible unless some trick or cheat was introduced. This doesn't stop the fact that they made revolutionary and amazing puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:23 pm 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.


...he's not tearing you apart. He's addressing your points. It's a process commonly called "having a discussion." Calm down and enjoy the puzzles :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:02 pm 
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I've never owned a V Cube so I have no say about them but I'm quite excited to see a new 4x4 about to be on the market. I can't wait to see the reviews.

CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.

That's what happens in civil discussions. He countered your arguments with no apparent offense intended. Instead of getting angry and defensive, try to use it to further strengthen your points.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:34 pm 
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I just wonder what improvements have been made to this mech, compared to the other verdes mechs and other cubes out there.

Totally not interested on whether or not Verdes keeps in line with their patent.. if we would have to we would all still have wooden wheels or tires with tubes on our cars *giggle* Brands improve, so does Verdes.. I hope at least :)


*drums fingers on table, wanting to see the innards already* :)


edit *smacks brain for making spelling mistakes.. ugh*

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:24 pm 
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I was wondering what would be the main reason(s) for bringing out the 4x4x4 before any of the 8+ versions.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:26 pm 
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DLitwin wrote:
As to why the 4x4x4: It has always been Verdes plan to do the full series, and clearly the potential to recover costs is greater with the 4x4x4 than the higher order cubes. The market for an 8x8x8+ is far smaller and cost to produce much larger. There is an active speed cubing community that will have interest in a new 4x4x4 (regardless of their personal views).

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:32 pm 
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DLitwin wrote:
pooya13 wrote:
I don't know the history, but from what I hear, the V-Cube company has played a revolutionary role in the twisty puzzles industry at some point.
I think this statement is representative of the greater portion of the speed cubing community, and I can see how it leads to the responses we often get. Really, how might one expect people to know the story without a bit of investigation? It's unfortunate, but inevitable I imagine. Search for posts by NEWCUBES to catch the early history (here is an early thread).

History has not been kind to the Verdes family, who indeed did revolutionize the puzzle community (not just "at some point", but who's influence benefits most every new puzzle being designed since). Their choice to follow the law and favor quality over time to market was not well rewarded. It is quite easy to be critical of their response when we haven't walked in their shoes, invested what they have invested and lost what they have lost. This is not a critique, defense or endorsement of any particular set of statements or actions on their part but an attempt at context.

Dave :)


Hi Dave,
Thanks for your thorough answer :)
I hope you won't be offended by my response, it seems that you value an honest discussion.

It really was not that important to me to investigate the history, or else I would have used the search button, and my comments were not about the history either.
I don't agree that they are "still" revolutionizing the puzzle community since they have been inactive for almost a decade (since their patent). I wouldn't say the folks who invented the wheel are "still" revolutionizing the engineering community. But of course their inovation still benefit the puzzle designers. (Same goes for the inventors of the wheel...) I guess it depends on how you use the word "revolutionize" :)
Regarding the quality, that was exactly the reason for me to spend around 70$(price+shipping) for a 3x3 cube, because I had heard very good things about the V-Cubes quality, but as I said in my previous comment I was greatly disappointed. So maybe "at some instances" they do offer extraordinary quality, but in my case it was mediocre at best, with an extra ordinary price tag.

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone after the KO companies or fight for what is rightfully theirs. What I said was that they have not made good business decisions, or as you put it "the market (aka the customers) has not been kind to them", and I gave what I believe to be the reason for that.
Be honest, you are defending them. What's wrong with having an opinion? You have your reasons as you mentioned. And I, as an ex-customer, have my reasons to be disappointed with their products and customer service.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Ender Delphiki wrote:
DLitwin wrote:
As to why the 4x4x4: It has always been Verdes plan to do the full series, and clearly the potential to recover costs is greater with the 4x4x4 than the higher order cubes. The market for an 8x8x8+ is far smaller and cost to produce much larger. There is an active speed cubing community that will have interest in a new 4x4x4 (regardless of their personal views).

So it's purely financial??? No other reasons? I can't believe that someone like Verdes would be driven only by financial motives. Perhaps "primarily" would be better?

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:36 pm 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.


You're really trying to be like this? :roll:
As slightly aforementioned, this is a place for discussion, not just a lone man's unchallenged opinion. And DtLitwin's post was probably the least offensive reply possible...


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:51 pm 
hawk wrote:
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.


You're really trying to be like this? :roll:
As slightly aforementioned, this is a place for discussion, not just a lone man's unchallenged opinion. And DtLitwin's post was probably the least offensive reply possible...


Ok Hawk, just so we're clear here, every single time I make a post that is critical, you step in and start attacking me for it. The very FIRST time I posted on this forum, you attacked me and my post was just saying hello to the community. I don't know why you have such a problem with me, maybe you've been blocked on my other social media pages and hold a grudge, I don't know, but you need to leave me alone. I feel bad that I have to write this in this thread for everybody to see, but I've asked you to leave me alone when you started making private messages to me as well, also attacking me there. Whatever personal reason you have to dislike me, I'd like for you to stop. Every single time you respond to me, it's an attack of some sort. You never have anything nice to say to me, never have, and for that reason alone I find it very difficult to pay any attention to what you have to say. You need to leave me the hell alone now. For good this time. Thanks. I apologize to everybody who is reading this. Obviously Hawk has a personal grudge against me and it's time it stopped.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:59 pm 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
hawk wrote:
CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Holy hell remind me to not voice my opinion about things anymore. You can't write an opinion on here without somebody tearing apart every single word in every single sentence. I feel as if I'm in the speed solving forum. I'm almost starting to remember why I left the first time.


You're really trying to be like this? :roll:
As slightly aforementioned, this is a place for discussion, not just a lone man's unchallenged opinion. And DtLitwin's post was probably the least offensive reply possible...


Ok Hawk, just so we're clear here, every single time I make a post that is critical, you step in and start attacking me for it. The very FIRST time I posted on this forum, you attacked me and my post was just saying hello to the community. I don't know why you have such a problem with me, maybe you've been blocked on my other social media pages and hold a grudge, I don't know, but you need to leave me alone. I feel bad that I have to write this in this thread for everybody to see, but I've asked you to leave me alone when you started making private messages to me as well, also attacking me there. Whatever personal reason you have to dislike me, I'd like for you to stop. Every single time you respond to me, it's an attack of some sort. You never have anything nice to say to me, never have, and for that reason alone I find it very difficult to pay any attention to what you have to say. You need to leave me the hell alone now. For good this time. Thanks. I apologize to everybody who is reading this. Obviously Hawk has a personal grudge against me and it's time it stopped.


I really don't have a grudge against you. I do not quite know what to think about you posting that though. I am not going to hurl any accusations back at you, that's for sure. I'm still surprised you would make an attempt to ...embarrass...me... (I think embarrass is the right word). Wow.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:02 pm 
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rline wrote:
So it's purely financial??? No other reasons? I can't believe that someone like Verdes would be driven only by financial motives. Perhaps "primarily" would be better?
Only Verdes and Co. know their balance sheet. While I'd love to see a 8x8x8 or greater from them I'd rather not have them go out of business in the process.

Only time will tell for the really big cubes. It's already been a very long time so I'm not holding my breath. Fortunately for us, the 4x4x4 really is the very last option they have short of moving to non-NxNxN cubes.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Hawk and CrazyBadCuber, this has nothing to do with the topic and isn't helping anything.

I don't understand why people are arguing about KOs in this topic. We've only seen a picture and a sentence, let's all take a step back and wait.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:29 pm 
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eye2eye wrote:
Hawk and CrazyBadCuber, this has nothing to do with the topic and isn't helping anything.


Trust me, I do not have the slightest desire to continue whatever is happening. I am sorry, I just don't really know how to feel about someone trying to ruin my reputation as a friendly person. If it was a smaller matter I would not have even replied, once again, I apologize.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:01 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Only time will tell for the really big cubes. It's already been a very long time so I'm not holding my breath. Fortunately for us, the 4x4x4 really is the very last option they have short of moving to non-NxNxN cubes.
what about the V-1? No knockoff controversy there.. But really. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:19 am 
Just so everybody knows, I've asked Dave to delete my account again. I have Dave writing "appropriate" things on the forum then sending me a PM with a more honest opinion of Konstantinos Verdes and V Cubes, which he should have just written in this thread instead of hiding his thoughts in a PM. Then Konrad keeps sending me PMs about this after repeatedly asking him to stop which he hasn't, and now Hawk is back trying to take stabs at me and when that's pointed out he acts like he doesn't.

I know I'm not the nicest guy in the world and I voice my opinion a lot, I'm critical and don't feel the need to be politically correct. As a result I don't think I'm fit for this site as I'm not a people pleaser and find it hard to care if people don't like me sometimes. Combine that with the crap others have been pulling today... Yes Dave, ease remove me from this site. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:11 am 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
Just so everybody knows, I've asked Dave to delete my account again. I have Dave writing "appropriate" things on the forum then sending me a PM with a more honest opinion of Konstantinos Verdes and V Cubes, which he should have just written in this thread instead of hiding his thoughts in a PM. Then Konrad keeps sending me PMs about this after repeatedly asking him to stop which he hasn't, and now Hawk is back trying to take stabs at me and when that's pointed out he acts like he doesn't.

I know I'm not the nicest guy in the world and I voice my opinion a lot, I'm critical and don't feel the need to be politically correct. As a result I don't think I'm fit for this site as I'm not a people pleaser and find it hard to care if people don't like me sometimes. Combine that with the crap others have been pulling today... Yes Dave, ease remove me from this site. Thanks.

I don't talk much on this forum, mostly because of my character and the fact that I prefer to listen and not talk. I don't know how old you are but really, I would sincerely urge you to calm down a bit. There's no need for public acts like deleting your account. There's some I don't agree myself on this site, and Dave does knows it, yet I stay put. That's not the reason for such hasty acts. Please, listen to me and just take a deep breath, and calm down. In the large scale of things this is not something to get agitated with this much. Dave did present his view on things, both his personal and the administrator's. And you can do the same. Even if Dave told you something different in a PM, that would only confirm that that people tell more to each other in personal communication than they to publicly. That's not a deficiency, that's what the word "personal" means. Just keep things civil as this is a public forum that can be viewed by anyone on the net.

Again, I urge you to calm down and just take some rest. Anger is a very bad advisor. There's no need for deleting your account, or for a public act of deleting it.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:19 am 
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puzzle_weaver wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
Only time will tell for the really big cubes. It's already been a very long time so I'm not holding my breath. Fortunately for us, the 4x4x4 really is the very last option they have short of moving to non-NxNxN cubes.
what about the V-1? No knockoff controversy there.. But really. :roll:

The small part of me that is a collector kind of hopes they come out with a v-1 :)
Pilowed and nonpillowed versions of course!

Also, has their been any interest in Verdes producing nonpillowed higher ordered puzzles?


Last edited by Hunter Palshook on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:32 am 
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rline wrote:
Ender Delphiki wrote:
DLitwin wrote:
As to why the 4x4x4: It has always been Verdes plan to do the full series, and clearly the potential to recover costs is greater with the 4x4x4 than the higher order cubes. The market for an 8x8x8+ is far smaller and cost to produce much larger. There is an active speed cubing community that will have interest in a new 4x4x4 (regardless of their personal views).

So it's purely financial??? No other reasons? I can't believe that someone like Verdes would be driven only by financial motives. Perhaps "primarily" would be better?

Besides fiances I think that since 2014 will be the five year release of the V-cubes, it kinda makes sense for them to unveil a higher order puzzle.


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