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 Post subject: Gus's version of the Hexaminx now with Video
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:38 am 
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Video now here.

Well, I decided to do my first full 3D designed puzzle, complete with mechanism and core. But what would be a good one for a novice designer? It had to be one which I have always wanted, but not one of these multi-shell monsters which needs Solidworks and a brain the size of a planet. So ... after many hours of work for me, Shapeways sent me this:
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Which turned into this using Rit dye:
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And then I assembled it into this:
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And using Oliver's Stickers it changed into this:
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It turns really smoothly and I am very happy with the result. I am too frightened to scramble it at the moment because it looks so good just sitting there next to my monitor. BTW, it is 65x65x65mm and weighs 120g. Thanks again Tony for a great puzzle :D

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Last edited by Gus on Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's latest puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:46 am 
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Haha look's great, nice job Gus :D.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's latest puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:14 am 
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Fabulous Hexaminx.
Will that be on your shapeways shop?
Terahexaminx next :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's latest puzzle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Looks really very nice!

I hope Tony Fisher will allow you to sell it on your SW shop (or you will agree in some way), so we all can all have one of this beauty!
Tony: please, please, please!

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:20 am 
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I've asked Tony about making this available on Shapeways, and he says no. I don't think he likes Shapeways very much, he's a member of the Old School of Puzzle Building I suspect :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:18 am 
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Gus wrote:
I've asked Tony about making this available on Shapeways, and he says no. I don't think he likes Shapeways very much, he's a member of the Old School of Puzzle Building I suspect :wink:


He said no because it's a puzzle he invented. He only allowed mine on shapeways because it was curvy.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Great puzzle Gus!
Regarding Shapeways, for the sake of this post lets imagine it's a person. I will call him Mr. Shapeways. Oskar, Tom and many others design amazing puzzles but for what ever reason in most cases decide not to actually make them. Instead they pay Mr. Shapeways to do that work. Usually Mr. Shapeways is then allowed to sell them in his shop and a small percentage of the profits go to the designer.
As a fellow puzzle maker I would be crazy to allow him to make and sell my puzzles in return for some poultry sum. Nobody would expect me to ask Anthony Greenhill to do the same and I am pretty sure he wouldn't ask me either.
I would much rather have them mass produced but then I would owe my previous buyers compensation. I have actually discussed this issue privately with many of them and the general census is that mass production for this exact puzzle is something they preferred didn't happen and I tend to agree. I do believe a bribe / compensation is a potential answer though I have decided not to take that route. As I said previously there will be more auctions for my Hexaminxes coming up shortly.
Congrats BTW to Mr.Shapeway's for his repeated success in the puzzle of the month competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Great puzzle Gus!
Thanks Tony.
Tony Fisher wrote:
Regarding Shapeways, for the sake of this post lets imagine it's a person. I will call him Mr. Shapeways. Oskar, Tom and many others design amazing puzzles but for what ever reason in most cases decide not to actually make them. Instead they pay Mr. Shapeways to do that work. Usually Mr. Shapeways is then allowed to sell them in his shop and a small percentage of the profits go to the designer.
Indeed, but people have to use Shapeways because it would be impossible / beyond their practical skills / take too long to make the puzzle by "normal" means. This was certainly the case for my Hexaminx.
Tony Fisher wrote:
As a fellow puzzle maker I would be crazy to allow him to make and sell my puzzles in return for some poultry sum. Nobody would expect me to ask Anthony Greenhill to do the same and I am pretty sure he wouldn't ask me either.
Obviously hand made puzzles command high prices because of their rarity and the beauty of their construction. An original Mona Lisa is worth more than a high quality copy print, but both can still look good hanging on your wall.
Tony Fisher wrote:
I would much rather have them mass produced but then I would owe my previous buyers compensation. I have actually discussed this issue privately with many of them and the general census is that mass production for this exact puzzle is something they preferred didn't happen and I tend to agree. I do believe a bribe / compensation is a potential answer though I have decided not to take that route. As I said previously there will be more auctions for my Hexaminxes coming up shortly.
And I hope that Claus is able to add another one to his collection :lol: But seriously, an original TF is still an original TF. I have one of your 1980s Fisher cubes, and I am very glad that I do, even though I could buy one now new for less than £10. But surely, if you buy something for a fair market price, which you are willing to pay, then you can't really complain if the price drops for some reason (see Fisher Cube).
Tony Fisher wrote:
Congrats BTW to Mr.Shapeway's for his repeated success in the puzzle of the month competition.
Yes, Mr. S does seem to have that competition locked out! He is skilful, quick and very prolific. But Smaz with his Time Machine must be a very close second :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:56 pm 
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I have great respect for Tony and I view the Hexaminx as his design. If he doesn't want it on Shapeways that is his prerogative. However some of these statements seem backhanded toward those that do use Shapeways and I hope that wasn't intended.
Tony Fisher wrote:
Oskar, Tom and many others design amazing puzzles but for what ever reason in most cases decide not to actually make them. Instead they pay Mr. Shapeways to do that work. Usually Mr. Shapeways is then allowed to sell them in his shop and a small percentage of the profits go to the designer.
I don't want to talk for Tom or Oskar but as I do offer puzzles on Shapeways, so I'll speak for myself. I don't have the building skills Tony has and if it weren't for Shapeways all my designs (as many still are) would just be pretty Pov-Ray pictures. Shapeways is a tool, much as the dremel tool Tony uses. The cost of using Shapeways is higher of course then the small amount Tony pays for the electricity his dremel uses but the principle I view as the same. As far as the percentage of the "profits" I'd venture an informed guess that the bigger piece of the pie in many cases actually goes to the designer. And that percentage is set by the designer. To make the math easy lets say the designer sets a 100% markup. So half of the selling price goes to the designer and the other half goes to Shapeways. However keep in mind the half which goes to shapeways isn't all profit. They have employee costs, material costs, etc. If I had to guess, I'd say their own markup over costs is about 100% so in this case the profit would be split 2/3 to the designer and 1/3 to Shapeways.
Tony Fisher wrote:
As a fellow puzzle maker I would be crazy to allow him to make and sell my puzzles in return for some poultry sum. Nobody would expect me to ask Anthony Greenhill to do the same and I am pretty sure he wouldn't ask me either.
I would much rather have them mass produced but then I would owe my previous buyers compensation.
I view Shapeways as a form of mass production (so I fail to see the difference there). And I disagree on the compensation issue. Puzzle making is an art form. If Leonardo da Vinci sold the Mona Lisa and then allowed someone else to sell reproductions, do you think he'd owe the person who bought the original compensation? I can say with certainty that if I owed the original Mona Lisa I'd be a very happy man and I wouldn't expect any compensation for the number of copies out there.
Tony Fisher wrote:
I have actually discussed this issue privately with many of them and the general census is that mass production for this exact puzzle is something they preferred didn't happen and I tend to agree.
That should be your call as this is your design.
Tony Fisher wrote:
I do believe a bribe / compensation is a potential answer though I have decided not to take that route.
If you did decide to accept compensation for your design should it also be considered a bribe?
Tony Fisher wrote:
Congrats BTW to Mr.Shapeway's for his repeated success in the puzzle of the month competition.
This to me seems harsh and again I hope that wasn't the intent. Should I congradulate Mr. Dremel for your awesome creations on the great work he does?

You are a designer and you are free to do with your designs as you see fit and I respect that. But I also don't believe there should be any negative connotations assoctaied with designers which do use Shapeways. If I'm reading that here and that wasn't the intent than I apologize.

And my opolgies to Gus as I went very far off topic with this post. Let's go to PM or start another thread if this needs to be replied to.
Carl

P.S. Gus you must have read my mind or I yours as I typed the above about Mona Lisa before seeing your post.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:01 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
some of these statements seem backhanded toward those that do use Shapeways and I hope that wasn't intended.

None whatsoever but lets not forget that Shapeways is just another puzzle maker.
The 4Cubes puzzle would not have existed without them and I think they provide a fantastic service.

wwwmwww wrote:
I disagree on the compensation issue.

To be honest my relationship with my customers is private and has nothing to do with you or anyone else. I only mention it because people bring this subject up over and over again. If you had purchased a Hexaminx for £300 a few years back I suspect your views would be different.

wwwmwww wrote:
If you did decide to accept compensation for your design should it also be considered a bribe?

I am not referring to compensation / bribe for me I am talking about my previous high spending customers. I know there is a great UK- USA divide when it comes to language but my use of 'bribe' is intended in a light hearted way with no negative meaning.

I find it curious how you are always attacking me over these issues yet when I do eventually make puzzles like the 4Cubes available you show no interest in buying them. If I did allow Gus to put my Hexaminx on Shapeways would you buy it? No I guess you wouldn't. You aren't one of my previous high paying customers either so these issues don't concern you. You seem to enjoy stirring things up for the sake of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:57 pm 
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I respect you as a puzzle maker Tony, but it seems that you are claiming that people who make Shapeways puzzles are leaving the hard part to the Shapeways team. This is not true at all.

What you are a master of, and what you love doing, and what you are deservingly well-known for, is hand-made puzzles and modifications of existing puzzles. What people like Tom, Oskar, Eric, David Pitcher, Luke, Greg, myself and others are good at and love doing is 3D modeling and making crazy new mechanisms and geometries--often ones that we could not make by hand. We have very different talents, but that doesn't make any of us better than the others. It just means that we have an incredible, varied community, churning out puzzles in all sorts of different ways.

I find it hard not to be offended when you make disparaging comments about the people who use Shapeways, by calling Shapeways the puzzle-maker. Sure, they make the physical object, but not before we designers spend 5 to 10 hours in Solidworks getting it just right.

We are good at CAD. You are good with a dremel. Why can't we make our puzzles however we want? We all end up with awesome products, don't we?

Tony Fisher wrote:
If I did allow Gus to put my Hexaminx on Shapeways would you buy it? No I guess you wouldn't. You aren't one of my previous high paying customers either so these issues don't concern you.

Wait... What? I'm sure he would buy one. I'm sure a lot of people would buy one. I can't see any connection between him not being one of your previous customers and him buying a Hexaminx on Shapeways.

Tony Fisher wrote:
You seem to enjoy stirring things up for the sake of it.

Really, Tony. Can you please calm down a bit? Carl is making really good points and trying to keep it peaceful. I don't think I've ever seen him stir things up.

-Eitan

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Last edited by pirsquared on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
To be honest my relationship with my customers is private and has nothing to do with you or anyone else. I only mention it because people bring this subject up over and over again. If you had purchased a Hexaminx for £300 a few years back I suspect your views would be different.


If something of this matter is private (which it should be), why are you bringing up prices that people have paid?

Tony Fisher wrote:
I find it curious how you are always attacking me over these issues


I wouldn't call it an attack, I would merely call it questioning when wwwmwww believed that he was in the firing line, or a subject needed to be addressed.

Tony Fisher wrote:
Thanks for your continued interest in our puzzle. It is now also available on ebay here.


This is from the 4cubes sale page, I personally think that this is very rude, snide remark, wwwmwww may have questioned you a lot but he isn't being malicious.

I have read both posts about 4cubes and wwwmwww has simply asked the price and whether it would be available on shapeways, never did he say that he would actually buy it. I personally wouldn't buy the 4Cubes puzzle as I don't like it, yet I would be interested in buying your other creations that aren't readily available.

I think it is sad how this has got out of hand but it need not go further, I know that I have made mistakes on this forum in the past but I think you should move on and not pursue the problem further. If anyone has a problem with this post, please PM me rather than filling Gus's thread.

Just my 2 cents
Robert

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
I disagree on the compensation issue.

To be honest my relationship with my customers is private and has nothing to do with you or anyone else. I only mention it because people bring this subject up over and over again. If you had purchased a Hexaminx for £300 a few years back I suspect your views would be different.
You brought that topic up not I. And had I been willing to pay £300 for a Hexaminx a few years ago it would have been done in the light that there could be a mass produced version down the road. There are no guarantees when you buy one of the first of anything.
Tony Fisher wrote:
I know there is a great UK- USA divide when it comes to language but my use of 'bribe' is intended in a light hearted way with no negative meaning.
Fair enough. I can't say I'm familiar with the subtle differences in meaning of many words between the UK and USA.
Tony Fisher wrote:
I find it curious how you are always attacking me over these issues yet when I do eventually make puzzles like the 4Cubes available you show no interest in buying them. If I did allow Gus to put my Hexaminx on Shapeways would you buy it? No I guess you wouldn't. You aren't one of my previous high paying customers either so these issues don't concern you. You seem to enjoy stirring things up for the sake of it.
Oh what to say... first of all I'm NOT attacking you. In this case if anything I felt I was defending those which use Shapeways. The only other case where we felt like we were butting heads was over the 4Cubes and there I was voicing my concern that you might have been in violation of a patent. It wasn't my patent and I don't know enough patent law to actually know if you were in violation of it or not. In hind sight I should have just kept my mouth shut. If the owner of the patent had any concerns he could have said something. There wasn't a need for me to open my big mouth. But again my concern wasn't meant to be viewed as an attack. As for me being one of your high paying custmers, most of that is true, but I do actually own a few of your puzzles. We were in touch via email in the late 90's. At the time you may have known me as cnh@ti.com. At the time I had a better paying job and I wasn't putting my money into making my own designs. And even that amount I take a fair bit of heat for from the wife already. It's not that I don't want more of your puzzles. But please don't take it personally... I only have 1 of Oskar's Shapeway puzzles and I'd love to have many more of them as well.

As for the comment "If I did allow Gus to put my Hexaminx on Shapeways would you buy it?". All I can say is maybe down the road. Right now I'm paying over $2000 a month for the mortgage of a home I'm not living in. I'm paying off credit card debt (of an amount I'm ashamed to say) from being unemployed twice so far in my career. I'm making headway on that debt and down the road may be able to finally sell that home. With these bigger real word issues out of the way I may be able to spend alot more on my hobbies again but now I have to be much more selective in what I spend and I hope you can atleast understand why. It really isn't meant to be personal and I don't enjoy stirring things up either.

I am very sad that you view this as an attack,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:01 am 
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Sorry to see that Tony do not want this puzzle on Shapeways, but I do agree with him, in some ways.

I would love to pay any money (not just £300) for his original Hexaminx puzzle. But unfortunately I do not have this amount to spend.
So I will always wait for a cheaper (Mas produced or a an SW version).

In my opinion a signed original TF puzzle worth it to buy in high price, even if there is a cheep copy of it on the market. The value is in it's originality.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:45 am 
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I recently did for self a Slim Mental Block and Tony also not given permission to sell it ...
this is normal. I respect the opinion of Tony and wish to sell Hexaminx, Mental Block and etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:14 am 
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Are you going to upload a video? I am curious to see how well this thing spins :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:02 am 
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Sigurd wrote:
Are you going to upload a video? I am curious to see how well this thing spins :)
Video now here.

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx now with Video
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:05 am 
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Looks great! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Let's all take a step back and put on our happier hats for a moment:

I don't find CAD designers being disparaged in the comments I have read. I think a distinction has been drawn between design and production, but not a distinction that trivializes the former.

Do remember that hand builders are designers as well. They may not use a CAD tool to express their design but they have to figure out how it will work before making it just like anyone else. Their art is not solely in hand creation.

Before design comes concept, where a puzzle can exist as an abstract idea before the details of specific design are worked out (Bram does this a lot). For some puzzles it is the concept where the genius resides.

And for the sake of fairness, let's not short the non-hand-built production side either: Shapeways has a lot of work to do between receiving a CAD file and shipping a part. For that matter taking a puzzle design and making it suitable for injection molding is another whole puzzle design in itself.

I think people presuming offense is intended should take a moment and remember this is a friendly place and perhaps there are non-offensive interpretations of the same text should they be re-read.

I won't deny there is a hostile tone by many of the authors here (something to work on, gentlemen) but let's consider its source is perhaps the general problem of a squeezed economic market in puzzle sales, not necessarily a disrespect for others' abilities or contributions.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx now with Video
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:35 am 
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Thank you Dave. I will try to keep my head next time.

Great video, Gus! That thing turns very well!

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Gus's version of the Hexaminx now with Video
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:13 am 
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Thanks Dave for calming things down. My next post will be about doing absolutely nothing so as not to offend anyone 8-)

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