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 Post subject: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:31 pm 
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This is my new puzzle, the Curvy Copter II:
Attachment:
File comment: The Curvy Copter II in solved state
solved 550.jpg
solved 550.jpg [ 97.13 KiB | Viewed 10097 times ]


The Curvy Copter II is an edge turning puzzle:
Attachment:
File comment: A partial turn on the Curvy Copter II.
turned 550.jpg
turned 550.jpg [ 101.64 KiB | Viewed 10097 times ]


It's the big brother of my Curvy Copter puzzle. It has more or less the same cuts but they are placed a bit deeper, creating 30 additional pieces. Unlike the original Curvy Copter, the Curvy Copter II no longer reveals the orientation of the centre pieces from the Helicopter Cube.
Attachment:
File comment: Curvy Copter and Curvy Copter II
comparison 550.jpg
comparison 550.jpg [ 70.87 KiB | Viewed 10097 times ]
(I know, this picture should have had a Helicopter cube in it.)

Like its predecessors, the Helicopter Cube and the Curvy Copter, the Curvy Copter II also jumbles:
Attachment:
File comment: The Curvy Copter II after being jumbled.
jumbled 550.jpg
jumbled 550.jpg [ 95.39 KiB | Viewed 10097 times ]


Here I have applied a move sequence that leaves the Helicopter Cube pieces untouched, but scrambles some of the pieces unique to the Curvy Copter II:
Attachment:
File comment: A special pattern that moves only the piece specific to the Curvy Copter II.
pattern 550.jpg
pattern 550.jpg [ 100.16 KiB | Viewed 10097 times ]


The puzzle is somewhat similar to the face turning rhombic dodecahedron, with the exception that the face pieces of the FTRD are not visible and that the stickering would need to be changed to make them exactly the same. The mechanism is quite different, mine is much more elegant and allows for a smaller puzzle.
The puzzle is printed in SLS and measures 63mm on an edge.

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Regarding sales:
I am working to find the best deal for "producing" these puzzles. I have found a 3D printing supplier that will give me a good volume discount (10-20 puzzles at half the price of the prototype) but am also engaged in discussions with Shapeways. If you are interested in purchasing this puzzle, please answer this one-question survey. Please respond even if you think your maximum is so low it would not be realistic, I'm interested in getting the full market picture.

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Last edited by TomZ on Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:36 pm 
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So this is a deeper cut helicopter cube? I like it. I had this idea a couple of days ago, but with me knowning next to nothing on designing, I had no idea how it would look and work.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:38 pm 
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No, it's not a deeper cut Helicopter Cube. It's a deeper cut Curvy Copter. Making a Curvy Copter deeper cut results a in a slightly different puzzle than making a Helicopter deeper cut. There are fewer pieces than on a deeper cut Helicopter, it removes the pieces that are impractical at this scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:42 pm 
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really cool!

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Very nice! I really like where you are taking the Helicopter concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:06 pm 
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This is fantastic! Really cool looking, and it turns well too!

http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/Applets/Magic%20Polyhedra/hexa_e4.htm
This is the Gelatinbrain applet version of this puzzle, but pillowed instead of having curved cuts.
Please make more of the helicopter-family!

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:33 pm 
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i would love to see a face turning version of this


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:47 pm 
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This is, hands down, my favorite puzzle of all time. fantastic job.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Yes, I started with a design for the GB "puffed" (it's not actually pillowed, there is no curvature) version. I wanted to make a "Curvy" version though as that is my trade mark, more or less.
I've got the design ready for printing so if anyone wants to give the puffed version a go, let me know.

I haven't a clue what "face turning version" means but a combination of a curvy brilicube and this should be interesting. I suppose you could start from a HC 2x2x2 but making it wouldn't be easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:30 pm 
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I thought you on vacation and now this!!!! Incredible work!
As you know, I admire your achievements very much. :)
I think, a small run of 20-30 puzzles at an affordable price (like Oskar's 2x3x3 Floppy Cube) would be a great idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:37 pm 
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I always liked the Curvy Copter, but I was never a huge fan of the way it looked. This, however, looks awesome! I'd love to see even more edge-turning puzzles soon. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:33 pm 
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AMAZING puzzle.
Any one else not ice the slight visual similarity to a hexaminx or even more so the curved hexaminx? Makes sense though considering the are both edge turning cubes.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:16 pm 
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The big brother of curvy copter!! I like it!! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:57 am 
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looks like a hexaminx for me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:36 am 
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It looks like my Curvy Hexaminx :lol:

It has the same amount of turning planes too, except these are arranged in a Rhombic Dodecahedron pattern instead of a dodecahedron.

It appears that you took the curvy copter design and curved it in the other direction (edit, maybe not.). I really like both of them, maybe I'll buy one when I get some money. 8-) :twisted: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:45 am 
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TomZ wrote:
I haven't a clue what "face turning version" means but a combination of a curvy brilicube and this should be interesting. I suppose you could start from a HC 2x2x2 but making it wouldn't be easy.
A curvy brilicube wouldn't have the centres it would be much more like Grigr's melancholy cube
Attachment:
melancholycube.jpg
melancholycube.jpg [ 18.31 KiB | Viewed 9558 times ]
mixed with this but i think he was hactualy refering to this in the form of an FTRD as you mentioned this was similar to it..
Quirky-Cubes wrote:
It appears that you took the curvy copter design and curved it in the other direction (edit, maybe not.)
Not in the other direction just deeper. This allows the puzzle to have the centre squares and house shaped pieces of this puzzle (GB 3.3.2)
Attachment:
3.3.2.jpg
3.3.2.jpg [ 42.38 KiB | Viewed 9575 times ]
without the fiddly little triangles or two coloured pieces near the edges. Visually the hexaminx is actually very close to a cross between these two puzzles having the small triangles on two edges per face but not on the other two.
Attachment:
tonyfishershexaminx.jpg
tonyfishershexaminx.jpg [ 157.88 KiB | Viewed 9575 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Very nice, I've been scooped by you again! Grrr...

If you wouldn't mind, please let me keep the last of the three designs I mentioned here, as I didn't make this one available on time owing to my current location (NZ is a difficult place to be dealing with shapeways from, thanks to FedEx) as well as my current unemployment--funds for a prototype are in scarce supply.

Again, great job!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:53 am 
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konsassen wrote:
I think, a small run of 20-30 puzzles at an affordable price (like Oskar's 2x3x3 Floppy Cube) would be a great idea.


When was this run of Oskar's 2x3x3 Floppy Cube made? I think I missed it. :(

And I TOO would love to see an affordable run of the Curvy Copter II. Actually I'd like to get both the original Curvy Copter and this as a set if the price was right.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:02 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
...
When was this run of Oskar's 2x3x3 Floppy Cube made? I think I missed it. :(
...
Carl
I had this in mind
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17362
I've ordered one and I think this will remain one of my all time favourite puzzles.
The offer had been limited by Friday June 11th, but it is still on at Shapeways.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:35 am 
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TomZ wrote:
Regarding sales:
I am working to find the best deal for "producing" these puzzles. I have found a 3D printing supplier that will give me a good volume discount (10-20 puzzles at half the price of the prototype) but am also engaged in discussions with Shapeways. If you are interested in purchasing this puzzle, please answer this one-question survey. Please respond even if you think your maximum is so low it would not be realistic, I'm interested in getting the full market picture.


the problem is, a lot of people will see full printed puzzles easily out of there price range (me included) especially for the quality of the puzzle. (From what I hear, printed is nowhere close in quality to a well cast/mass produced puzzle.

I'm not going to vote for this reason, unless 3D printing improves lots and gets much cheaper, I'm unfortunately not the right market, as much as I would love one of these puzzles :)


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:51 am 
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Please do participate in the survey. How much would you pay for a 3D printed puzzle? $30, $50? I want to know, regardless of that the price won't be near $30.

3D printed puzzles are not by definition bad in quality - though bad ones are not uncommon. Cast and factory-made puzzles are usually a bit shinier and heavier (cast ones especially) than 3D printed ones. As far as turning goes, my Curvy Copter II turns every bit as good as a mass produced one would be. Durability of 3D printed puzzles is on par with produced ones.
In short, commenting on the quality of this puzzle is nearly offensive :wink: It doesn't have the shine and weight other puzzles have, but apart from that it is every bit as good.

wwwmwww wrote:
And I TOO would love to see an affordable run of the Curvy Copter II. Actually I'd like to get both the original Curvy Copter and this as a set if the price was right.
What is a right price for such a package deal if I were to do it? Are there any other people who would be interested in that?

As a warning, definitions of affordable vary. It won't be as expensive as the Curvy Copter but it won't be as cheap as the Floppy 2x2x3 since Shapeways isn't sponsoring this.

I could do a Curvy Copter run but I don't think that would be possible for two reasons: 1) most of the puzzle collectors interested in buying one already have one so I could not gather enough people to allow for such a run 2) even if enough people gathered up, I wouldn't want to devalue what is already out there
I'm a sucker for offering "bulk" discounts. Whenever somebody orders multiple of my puzzles I give some kind of discount. At least that would apply in this case.

Finally, I'm totally amazed at the response to the survey. Thank you everybody who is participating (please do enter if you haven't already), the information I'm getting from this is invaluable (and will be shared at some point).

Just to give you an idea: due to holidays, the initial limited run of 10-15 puzzles will start at the end of next month.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:02 pm 
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I would really be interested in buying the Curvy Copter and Curvy Copter II if it was offered as a package and at a reasonable price. The only thing is that I will need to know in advance if such a deal will happen so that I can have the time to save up money.


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:12 pm 
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I would like a package with curvy I and II. If they have a good price!!
This kind of puzzle must be mass produced. They are fantastic!


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:18 pm 
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It is exactly Gelatin Brain 3.3.8, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:38 am 
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TomZ wrote:
...
3D printed puzzles are not by definition bad in quality - though bad ones are not uncommon. Cast and factory-made puzzles are usually a bit shinier and heavier (cast ones especially) than 3D printed ones.
...
I support this statement. I own a few Shapeways puzzles and custom cast puzzles. I like the weight of well made cast puzzles, but they have a big problem: bubbling of stickers. (I'm trying an experiment together with TomZ using stickers out of Cubesmith tile sheets.) With Shapeways WSF puzzles you will never see that problem.
Yes, you may not like the grainy structure of the surface of WSF, but I personally prefer grainy to bubbling.
The light weight of printed puzzles is due to the Shapeways pricing strategy, as I understand the situation. Tom can make his puzzles as heavy as we want, if we pay the price. :)
As far as turning goes: The Curvy Copter I turns as a dream. WSF puzzles respond very well to silicone spray (at least the brand I'm using)
Even the Dino Skewb with its really complex mechanism turns better than some less complex cast puzzles.

I hope for improvements in 3D printing too, but amazing things can be done, nowadays already.
Look at Oskar's 2x3x3 Floppy Cube. I believe that nobody will be able to cast such a design!
EDIT: Here is a picture showing what I mean:

Image

The thin corner pin needs a precision, flexibility and strongness that is probably not achievable by casting.

I like well made mass-produced puzzles, too. Regarding such a low production number we can compare cast puzzles versus printed puzzles, only.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:39 am 
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TomZ wrote:
What is a right price for such a package deal if I were to do it? Are there any other people who would be interested in that?

<SNIP>

I could do a Curvy Copter run but I don't think that would be possible for two reasons: 1) most of the puzzle collectors interested in buying one already have one so I could not gather enough people to allow for such a run 2) even if enough people gathered up, I wouldn't want to devalue what is already out there.


If you are serious about offering a Curvy Copter set here is a solution that addresses BOTH of your reasons above. See attached pic.

Attachment:
CopterSet.png
CopterSet.png [ 43.73 KiB | Viewed 9023 times ]


The puzzle on the left is your Curvy Copter II but the puzzle on the right is a redesign of your original Curvy Copter but made with convex cuts instead of concave cuts. It also exposes the core which isn't seen in the original Curvy Copter. Solving wise its the same puzzle as the original but its a better visual match to the Curvy Copter II.

Collectors would want both and its different enough from the original that I don't think it would devalue it in any way.

I'd buy the set if the pair could be kept under $200. It might also be nice if both were the same size but I think that would make the Curvy Copter redesign bigger then needed and add unneeded expense.

Just a thought,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:30 am 
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Wow, that's nice. I'd love to make it, but I'd need to check with someone else first. I'm not sure if I could offer a set for $200 but I can try.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:59 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Wow, that's nice. I'd love to make it, but I'd need to check with someone else first. I'm not sure if I could offer a set for $200 but I can try.


TRY, PLEASE!!! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:12 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Wow, that's nice. I'd love to make it, but I'd need to check with someone else first. I'm not sure if I could offer a set for $200 but I can try.

As cheap as you can get it, and I'd probably be able to have them ordered for Christmas this year! I'm thinking of asking for an Oskar design, but I'm going to see how much I can save up and how much I can ask for.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:14 pm 
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Amazing concept, though I have to say I much prefer your original design. For some reason I prefer puzzles with equal or similar-sized stickers for purely aesthetic reasons. Your original design is perfect in this regard, less so with this one. But that's just my own peculiar taste so don't listen to me... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Unfortunately, wwwmwww's puzzle does not work. I absolutely love the concept but I can't see any possible way to get the corners to stay attached :(

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:37 pm 
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I'll try my way of that puzzle... I'm thinking of a way to do it...

:D Greg :D

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:22 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Unfortunately, wwwmwww's puzzle does not work. I absolutely love the concept but I can't see any possible way to get the corners to stay attached :(


Interesting... the corners here are bigger then on the original and I thought they would go just as deep. Not having ever built a helicopter cube the problem isn't obvious to me. Could you post a few pictures that illustrate the problem you are running into?

And is it possible to build a shallow cut Helicopter Cube with planar cuts. The first puzzle in this animation?

Image

If that can be built I believe it could be made to look like the Convex Curvey Copter by just adding extensions.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Tomz uses a conic section which passes through the four edges
it always gives four arc curved, when viewed from its center,
on your 2 pictures - 2 arc curved and 2 arc concave inside,
it is possible to construct - but unfortunately it will not rotate
:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:41 am 
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grigr wrote:
Image
Tomz uses a conic section which passes through the four edges
it always gives four arc curved, when viewed from its center,
on your 2 pictures - 2 arc curved and 2 arc concave inside,
it is possible to construct - but unfortunately it will not rotate
:twisted:

I think you misunderstand which pieces are supposed to move with a turn. All four arcs are concave. Geometrically, it will rotate just fine. But evidently mechanically, it won't. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:44 am 
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bhearn wrote:
I think you misunderstand which pieces are supposed to move with a turn. All four arcs are concave. Geometrically, it will rotate just fine.


bhearn is correct. Does this pic help?

Attachment:
CopterB.png
CopterB.png [ 50.7 KiB | Viewed 8704 times ]


The pieces that move are the blue ones. All the cuts are spherical. The surface of the sphere is seen here in green.

bhearn wrote:
But evidently mechanically, it won't. :(


Considering all the amazing puzzles I've seen here I find it hard to believe this one can't be made but I'll trust the experts. Can someone show the issue they are running into with pictures so I can SEE what the problem is?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:16 am 
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It's not so much impossible as impractical. As long as the puzzle is large enough, it will work. But needing to make it about 2x as expensive as the original Curvy Copter isn't a very nice idea.

Here's a picture of the parts. As you can see, the corner stem is way too thin (the size of the cube is 60mm):
Attachment:
CCII.PNG
CCII.PNG [ 60.46 KiB | Viewed 8687 times ]


And here's the underlying sketch:
Attachment:
CCII_2.PNG
CCII_2.PNG [ 17.65 KiB | Viewed 8687 times ]


The thickness of the corner stem is defined by the position of the rightmost point in the sketch. The more to the right it is the more stable the puzzle will be.

However, it can't really be moved further inward. The 2mm dimension encircled in red defines the width of the stems connecting the centre squares to the core. I can't make that smaller. The 2.25mm dimension encircled in blue correlates with the stability of the puzzle. As is, it probably will be unstable. I usually use 4.5mm for this part.
The green four indicates the size of the centre squares. Even when the mechanism is a constraint, this would also prevent making the corner stems larger.

Sure, make the puzzle very large and you'll be fine. Here's a picture of the puzzle at 80mm (with a slightly more stable mechanism):
Attachment:
CCII_3.PNG
CCII_3.PNG [ 95.61 KiB | Viewed 8687 times ]

That still doesn't work :(

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:32 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Sure, make the puzzle very large and you'll be fine.

....

That still doesn't work :(


Confused... does it work if you make the puzzle big enough or not? Take a looking at Eitan's Master Helicopter Cube and focus on just the shallow cuts. If you take away the deeper (not deep) cuts you have a shallow cut Curvy Copter. If you were to make a Shallow Cut Curvy Copter that would show the core (center square on each face) would you still have room for the feet of the corners?

If yes... why does this design offer so much more room then the one I proposed?
If no... what is Eitan doing that you aren't doing? Eitan may be the only one that can answer that and I wouldn't blame him for not answerings.

Curious,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:49 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
If no... what is Eitan doing that you aren't doing? Eitan may be the only one that can answer that and I wouldn't blame him for not answerings.

Curious,
Carl

Pillowing. The master heli is pillowed, neither of Tom's designs are.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:36 pm 
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theVDude wrote:
Pillowing. The master heli is pillowed, neither of Tom's designs are.


Excellent observation. Thanks.

So would a set consisting of a pillowed Copter II and a pillowed redesigned Copter I be possible? Pillowing might even allow the Copter II to be made smaller helping to keep the costs down.

Just a thought,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Except that pillowing the thing out will reduce the size of the center square in this puzzle, while increasing it in the matching concave version. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it will affect the aesthetics of the set.

Of course, there are ways around this as well...

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Curvy Copter II (please respond to survey)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Hi Tomz
Today I designed this Edge-Octa
I noticed that a full equivalent of your cube ;)
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viewtopic.php?p=216529#p216529

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Last edited by grigr on Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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