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 Post subject: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:31 pm 
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No, I wasn't going to call it that, that was my wife's suggestion.

I was going to call it the Oxo Skewb as, in its final version it will have a shell turning it into a 2x2x2/ skewb hybrid with an "O" and "X" on each face.

This was only ever going to be a prototype. It turns a little in each direction, but needs alot of cleanup and lube before I try to push whole rotations.

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It has taken six months and more hours work than I care to think, plus a very patient wife, to get it to this stage. Soooooooo much more work is needed. A redesign, and polyjet parts are going to be needed to get this working properly, but I am now pretty convinced the concept is sound.

It is a composite of three mechanisms. Has this been tried before?

It will eventually have seven deep cuts meeting in the center. Has this been done by anyone?

It has over two hundred parts (not including screws etc), but quite a few are glued together as composite parts. Not quite a Petaminx I know.

I'm very tired and need to go to bed right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Wow. An ambitious project that looks like it's coming along well.

Best of luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:38 pm 
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I am completely puzzled as to how this works, I am very anxious to learn more about it!


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:40 pm 
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looks promising

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:19 pm 
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timselkirk wrote:
It will eventually have seven deep cuts meeting in the center. Has this been done by anyone?

It has over two hundred parts (not including screws etc), but quite a few are glued together as composite parts. Not quite a Petaminx I know.

It reminds me quite a bit of Jason Smith's (io) Pentultimate mechanism, are they based on the same concept?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:29 pm 
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I can pick out a cuboctahedron shape in the pictures and beyond that, I'm lost!

Let us know when it's armed and fully operational :)


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:20 pm 
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So it LOOKS like two puzzles together, I don't wanna speculate, so could you explain more in-depth about the puzzle?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Justin wrote:
Let us know when it's armed and fully operational :)

timselkirk wrote:
This was only ever going to be a prototype. It turns a little in each direction, but needs alot of cleanup and lube before I try to push whole rotations.

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
The Death Star is operational?! It's a trap!

Don't let it catch you off guard! :)

Awesome puzzle. So this is basically the kernel for it, right? And the final puzzle will have a square shell? Either way it'll look awesome when it's finished. Can't wait to see what the future has in store for this design. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:06 pm 
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If to look at a kernel, I see (3*3*3 + skewb) - 1 picture
But you speak about (2*2*2 + skewb) - 2 picture
On what this surprising puzzle will be similar?

It is a lot of good luck to you and patience to your wife ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Reminds me of Matt's 24-cube.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:39 pm 
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That's what I was thinking. They look very similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:47 pm 
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It seems to me, that your kernel will give the chance to construct both puzzles

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:07 am 
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WOW, man. That's great.

IS that a knucklehead mechanism I see in there? I almost went into convulsions thinking about how fun those are.

I can imagine how much work this was and it's a HUGE amount. Congrats on getting this far. Keep going!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:04 am 
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I thought of making it that way - I got all the way to making those awful groove mechanism parts, - I never felt easy enough about the mechanism to start building it - but I now see the flaw in my design that makes it half as practical as yours. Very nice, I love it!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:36 am 
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io wrote:
IS that a knucklehead mechanism I see in there?

Bang! Hits nail on head. But only the corner pieces use the knucklehead (GREAT name Thomas! It is a beast to design and build)

grigr wrote:
If to look at a kernel, I see (3*3*3 + skewb) - 1 picture

Exactly right. However, the pictures show that there are triangular holes in the puzzle. These have spacers to go in which need the external shell to hold them in place. However, in this incarnation, they tend to jam the mechanism and fall out (no shell to hold them in!). I am not sure they are strictly necessary, but will help to align the puzzle.

[Edit, info added:]
The "corners" will carry a corner shell and the "centre edges" will carry a centre triangle shell. These will overlap the 3x3x3 centres so that they will not be visible (It should look exactly like grigr's picture #2). I have made these shell pieces, but without much finishing, they will not fit very well. Without these extra pieces the edges and the (missing) spacer triangles are not stable. The shell therefore actually adds to the stability of the puzzle. This means a 3x3x3/skewb requires more modifications. I have a neat idea to stop the centres of the 3x3x3 cominhg out of alignment under the 2x2x2 shell and it won't involve a clicking mechanism!

Politely Owned wrote:
So this is basically the kernel for it, right?

Correct! A cube is what I have designed, though I guess there are many interesting possible shapes for the shell. I think an octahedron would look particularly nice.

There are two design flaws, neither of which will stop operation completely. The first involves a redesign of the skewb at the heart. I think I can just fit a V-skewb type mech in its 32mm diameter frame which should add alot of strength and stability. The second change will stabilise the spacers and the 3x3x3 edge pieces.

One of the problems here is that many pieces are too complex to mould as single pieces. However I didn't realise this until they were printed, so had to "split" them manually. I have not done this accurately enough (spot the flaws in the two-part pieces). In the reprint these will be printed as two parts which will add alot of accuracy.

Thanks for the encouragement folks, I need it, this is all going to take quite a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:59 am 
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WOW!!! Looks great. Another puzzle I have always wanted to see made. Any chance you'll make this puzzle available when its finished? If not complete puzzles would you consider something similiar to the way Matt offered his 24-Cube for sale?

Looking at the deep cut puzzles for the cube we have:

Face Turns = 2x2x2
Corner Turns = Skewb
Edge Turns = 24-Cube

Now what is left is to combine these:

Face+Corner Turns = Your Death Star or OXO Skewb
Face+Edge Turns = 48-Cube? (yet to be made)
Corner+Edge Turns = No idea. Has this even been named yet?

And what I'd really love to see is the following:

Face+Corner+Edge Turns all in the same puzzle. Again if this has been named I don't know what its called.

Considering the complexity of the OXO Skewb and the 24-Cube I'm not sure I should expect to see this one in my lifetime but there sure seems to be an explosion in new twisty puzzles and the technology behind twisty puzzles in just the last few years so I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this eventually... maybe even sooner rather then later.

Keep up the great work,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:02 am 
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A 3x3x3 + skewb hybrid! Very very awesome! Can´t wait to see it finished

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:03 pm 
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This looks very interesting.

When I was working on my initial CAD model of my Skew-by-2, I thought about solving my problems using a "knucklehead"-like mechanism. I dropped that idea when I realized how much work that would entail. It's great to see that this idea might just work! I'm still slowly working through the design that Door and I have discussed. If we both end up with the same puzzle but with different mech's I'd be interested in comparing finished products. (I'm not sure how long it'll be before I have a new model, so it may be a while.)

It looks like your wife's suggestion is going to stick!

Justin wrote:
Let us know when it's armed and fully operational :)

Admiral Ackbar wrote:
The Death Star is operational?! It's a trap!


Maybe one form of this puzzle could have a spherical shell, and that one can be called the Death Star.

Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:46 pm 
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great work. cant wait to see pics of it turning. this could be a serious contender for the twisty P.O.T.Y. award in december

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Good work on designing this! I had a hard time designing the internals for the 'skew-by-2' that Pirsquared and I are working on, and this is extremely similar, but there are some differences. I like how you can basically make a skewb + 3x3x3 hybrid using the same mechanism, all you have to do is make the edges come out!

anyway,
Good luck :)

-Mark-

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Now this is impressive--I love these "impossible" mechanisms like this, and I can't wait to see it when it comes together!

How big is this item so far?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:55 pm 
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pirsquared wrote:
If we both end up with the same puzzle but with different mech's I'd be interested in comparing finished products.

Door wrote:
I had a hard time designing the internals for the 'skew-by-2' that Pirsquared and I are working on, and this is extremely similar, but there are some differences.

I follow your progress with great interest. It will be really interesting to see what similarities and differences we come up with. It no longer surprises me that much how people come up with similar ideas at the same time! Good luck and keep us updated on your progress. My progress too will be slow as I am trying to keep several other projects moving along.

supercube wrote:
great work. cant wait to see pics of it turning

Thanks but don't hold your breath! I have already pulled one of the center axles out of its screw thread trying to push a turn. I have a couple of spares to fix it.This is going to be a long project!

the.drizzle wrote:
How big is this item so far?

There was a great deal of guess-work sorting out dimensions, constraints and limits of size etc. There are so many factors to balance: Strength, size, complexity, castability, amount of clean-up, stability, etc etc. You know how it is if anyone does! The internal skewb is 32mm across. Each of the 8 knucklhead grooves is 1.5mm deep. Adding all this up it comes to 80mm. The shell will add about 5mm to this in total. I think these figures will stay about the same in the finished article. Scale of parts seems about right, there are no serious strength problems, but I don't think I can pair it down much more.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:45 am 
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Those pictures are such a tease! I can't wait to see a completed puzzle, or more pictures that show the possible turns. It looks amazing! I haven't seen a core as complicated as that since the 24-cube, neither of which I understand in the least. Great work, I'm looking forward to seeing the final masterpiece!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:46 am 
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I'm not sure how your whole thing works, but I have a few notes/suggestions:

The internal puzzle doesn't need to be a skewb, it can be a pyraminx. I assume the face centers are the only things directly attached to the core?

It's unclear what's going on with your knucklehead layers, but I *think* you have them in more places than necessary - the only place where they're critical is the corners hooking into the smaller triangles next to them (the ones which you don't have missing). The 3x3x3 slices can remain clean.

I think you're going to have to add in the missing triangles in your design, if only as placeholders which are held in by the currently missing outer layer which makes it deep cut, otherwise the arrow-shaped pieces are going to slide towards each other and jam the skewb slices.

Overall, it looks like it might be workable. io's pentultimate doesn't really work properly, but that has twelve knucklehead grooves and no core, while this one has eight knucklehead grooves and a core, which is altogether more reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:53 am 
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Interesting comments Bram.
Bram wrote:
but I *think* you have them in more places than necessary - the only place where they're critical is the corners hooking into the smaller triangles next to them

The only place I have them is the corners, and you're right, there need to be eight grooves.
Bram wrote:
think you're going to have to add in the missing triangles in your design,

I agree (probably!), I have these pieces made, but they are not present because only the shell keeps them in. I have in mind some modifications to help the stability of these pieces as they have a tendency to twist and jam.
Bram wrote:
The internal puzzle doesn't need to be a skewb, it can be a pyraminx.

I am not sure you are right here. the pyraminx does not have rotations that cut the center of the puzzle, so these rotations wouldn't work. Also, while the pyraminx is slightly simpler, I think I can make a skewb more stable.

Your summary is pretty good, and I think the puzzle will eventually work, but perhaps not in the sense of a speed-cube puzzle!


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 Post subject: Re: Death Star
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:18 pm 
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That sure looks interesting.

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