I didn't think I ever would, but I've added advertising to the site. Rather than ask for your forgiveness, as a part of me wishes to do, I will ask for your understanding. Not a small part of this change is due to the fact that I was let go from my job of 11.5 years on Tuesday morning, so I'm working on getting my financial ship in order by casting about for loose ends. As far as TP goes, I will also be looking at overhauling how the Shop does it's business, including the possibility of moving order fulfillment across the border to the United States where the customer's shipping options will be both faster and cheaper.

Anyway, back to the ads. Hopefully those who dislike them can just ignore them rather than choose a technological work around. And hopefully the ads won't prove to be too much of a buzz kill. I intend to leave them there for a month and assess their value. At that point I'll make an assessment and let you know what my conclusions are.

Thanks in advance for your patience and support!

EDIT: Please help me weed out inappropriate ads by reporting them to me. I'd prefer not to try and define a morally relative term such as "inappropriate", so suffice it to say that if you find it inappropriate, others probably do too. Send me an e-mail (PMs are read infrequently) and include the target URL of the ad by right-clicking it and selecting "Copy Shortcut", "Copy Link Address", "Copy Link Location" or similar. This way you can avoid visiting the advertiser's site.

Sandy

Well, I for one don't mind the ads, you have to fund the site somehow. They are pretty ubiquitous these days so I'm used to having them around.

Sorry to hear about the job too. As someone who's been laid off a few times in my life, I can certainly sympathise. I hope you find something else soon.

Sandy

I may be in a minority here, but I hate the ads. I would without any question much rather fund the site for you by paying an annual fee of something in the order of $5-$20. The amount that most of us spend on TPs, I can't see something like $20 a year being any problem. My opinion is that the ads take away massively from the community feel of the site and make it look tacky. I have no issues whatsoever with keeping you fed financially, I would just prefer there be no ads. As I said, I may be in the minority...

I was surprised when I suddenly saw the ad just now, but I do understand. And besides, given what you have done to build this community, I don't think anyone could expect you to seek their permission.

More important, sorry to hear about your job. Times are tough, but on the positive side:

1) you are clearly skilled in all web-related stuff (social, forums, e-commerce, etc.) and there's always a need for work in this area.

2) you have a fantastic global network of loyal friends, and I'm sure that one of us can help you find something.

So, keep your chin up, and don't worry about what people think of the ads.

Lets not forget that for many years there was a Mefferts banner and as far as I recall only one certain Greek person complained about it.

Sorry about the bad news.

Regarding the banners; To be honest I hate them! Especially the moving ones.
Please put a donate button to your site, and I will gladly pay you "entrance fee" every month or so. I'm sure if all the 2914 members will donate you only $10, it would be enough for a time...

Joke aside,
I totally understand that you need money. but still do not like these advertisements.

...says the guy who slaps a big advertising banner at the bottom of every post, without even paying for it. At least this is just one banner per page - on his own site.

I don't like ads either, but frankly, nobody has any right to complain about a service that is provided to them for free, with someone else's own personal time and money.

Correct. And so far I haven't heard any complaints. All I've heard is "We realise and fully understand you need to fund things. Let us pay you for that privilege, and for the service of keeping the ads away."

I actually think ads (NO POP-UPS!) plus a donation button would be good. Some sites have a system where a minimum donation gets a little icon or "supporting member" by your name. I am not sure if you can ask for donations through PayPal these days for non charities but I guess there's a work round.

Not directly relevant to this site/case, but I just saw this interesting article about the decline of banner ads:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsk ... t-like-it/

Tony, your comment made me smile.

Sandy, it is completely understandable and I hope things get better for you soon.

I'm really sorry to hear about your job. I hope you find a new one soon!

I have no issues with the ads. It'll take some time to retrain the muscle memory for scrolling to the pages I'm looking for, but I'm sure that by the end of the month, I won't even notice them. However, it would be nice if they weren't animated.

Are you allowed to explain the pricing structure? Do you get paid more according to the number of people who view and/or click them? (Like YouTube ads?) Should we all pledge to click an ad at least once per session? I'd totally do that.

-Eitan

That's actually a good idea.

But be careful to click on ads that actually interest you, or you'll only see irrelevant ads in future.

Google AdSense is complicated. Google has sophisticated click-fraud detection and protection. Clicking on advertisements with no intention of browsing the target site often trips the false click detection.

For info on AdSense see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAceed8sW1o and http://www.google.com/adsense/

Google uses a keyword bidding model so there is no fixed cost to advertisers for displaying ads. Because of this the actual revenue a webmaster will make is highly variable and it often takes months before you have enough data to understand what the revenue will be like.

Edit: btw, there are two types of ads with AdSense. Those that pay by impression and those that pay by click. The webmaster has control over which they display. See https://support.google.com/adsense/bin/ ... &ctx=topic

And only one certain English person complaining that only one certain Greek person was complaining.

On a serious note, from what I remember, Sandy wasn't getting any revenue from those ads.
Of course, in my case, I wouldn't mind having ads, but I also like rline's suggestion to fund it ourselves.


Pantazis

I didn't even see them, until I realized I had AdBlock on. Rline and others, if they bother you so much, simply install the web browser plug-in.

Anyway, Sandy, I am sorry to hear about your troubles.

-Doug

This is a very narrow-sighted response.

1) Many people object to advertisements for reasons other than them seeing them. Adblock only addresses not seeing them.

2) If Sandy needs advertisement revenue blocking them defeats that.

Why not make a system where someone who donates will stop seeing the banners? The structure could be a one-time fee or monthly fee, depending on the values.

Aside from whether or not I mind the ads, I think a donation option would have quite good reception. And Brandon brings up a good point. Adblock is basically a slap in the face to the purpose of these ads----revenue to keep an awesome much used site up

I totally agree. My initial response was not just about hating the ads. It was about supporting Sandy in what I saw as an even better option. Considering his role in getting us all to this point, I think it's the least we could do.

You are right! That is one of the reason I wrote, I'm gladly pay/ donate. But if you look carefully, almost all of us has some advertisement in our signature. (shops, auctions, shapeways items, etc). But these kind of advertisements are much different, than the animated ones, because there is much larger chance that they might interest other forum members. And it is for the benefit for many people, and not only for an unknown company.

Just 3 solutions other than this:
- I think it can be work out how we can donate on the site.
- Maybe sponsored banners wold be better too (for example: toy shops, like HK Nowstore, or Mefferts...)
- We pay for our „signature advertisements” is a good idea too.
I think these would be a much better solution, than the animated banners at the top, and the side bar of the site.

But like I wrote I can live with it, just do not like it.

I suggest the donate feature too, if its a fee you have to pay that could put off current members, and potential future members.

To throw in my two cents...

(yes, I'll donate more if the button is there)

I've some experience with Google AdWords/Adsense, because I've some pages in the Dutch Startpagina.nl network.
And honestly, the affiliate-marketing links I list and Google AdSense do not bring much in. On average approx. Euro 0,20 a day for all pages (approx. 1500 visitors a month).

As stated above, one should indeed be careful to say 'please click my ads'. As it will devaluate your page-rank as reliable advertisor.
When trying out AdWords myself, I paid relatively quite some money for bogus-sites. But also received some money back due to 'unreliable clicks'.

So: yes, sure, you can try out advertising. And the best return you'll probably have not from the members here (which is good; see the statement of 'reliability') but from people searching for puzzles and finding TP. And also think 'hey, I see an interesting banner'.
But like most of you: I almost never click an advertising banner.

So as I also find, and you'll probably notice: you will get some money from the spontaneous visitor. But that will be all. I don't think it'll be very much.

A yearly donation round is a good idea. I support the $10,- thought/ year (for people having an income. Students etc. as they can afford/like).

And of course hope you'll have a steady job soon again.

Actually, yes, there should be a fee for those who like/want to post messages.
(i.e. for being registered).

I am sure everyone here would understand the importance of this forum, the work
that has been put in it and the need to allow it to survive now and in the future.

And by definition, those who really need to show some appreciation are those
who are always very actively involved. There is also an excellent side-effect:

It will deter some/many people who are not really interested in such puzzles
(but have different motives).




Pantazis

Just to avoid any confusion my "Greek person" reference was related to Konstantinos Verdes.
Here's Google's hotspot map for ads. I think it's self explanatory.

I agree with everything that rline said 100%. I just hope the ads are appropriate and not inappropriate. Sorry to hear that Sandy. I'd rather pay $5.00USD per month then $20.00USD per year.

First and foremost: Some inappropriate ads have been shown. I'd prefer not to try and define a morally relative term such as "inappropriate", so suffice it to say that if you find it inappropriate, others probably do too. Please help me weed these out by reporting them to me. Send me an e-mail (PMs are read infrequently) and include the target URL of the ad by right-clicking it and selecting "Copy Shortcut", "Copy Link Address", "Copy Link Location" or similar. This way you can avoid visiting the advertiser's site. I'll add this information to the original post.

My thanks to everyone for their support and understanding about this. I am proud to serve this community, and over the years I have continually kept your preferences foremost in my mind whenever implementing changes. So I'm sure you can understand that making this decision unilaterally was not easy for me. Nobody wants ads, myself most definitely included. They are merely a means to an end that could be achieved in other ways.

So here's my plan. Run the ads for a month to get a sense of how much money they will bring in, then multiply by 12 to get a yearly revenue goal. From there, a number of different things could happen:

1) The yearly revenue is too low to bother with this at all, scrap the whole idea, revert to the way things were before ads were introduced.

2) The yearly revenue is low enough that I'm uncomfortable imposing it upon the valued forum members, but high enough to keep them around, so ads will only be shown to visitors who are not logged in forum members.

3) The revenue is high enough to leave the ads on for everyone.

3a) The ads are on, but forum members can become "Supporting Members" (lifting Tony's lifted idea). This membership fee would be determined by the yearly revenue. If the yearly revenue was $1200, and there are approximately 100 active members, the yearly membership fee would be $12 at most, and probably less since ads will still be shown to everyone else.

3b) The ads are on until we hit a yearly "Donation Drive" goal. Any/all can contribute whatever amount they want during the Donation Drive. When the yearly ad revenue amount is hit, the ads disappear from the site for a year.

Sandy

Sandy,
So sorry to hear about you losing your job. Best of luck getting a new job.

I think your 3b idea is great! Personally I don't mind ads and I don't use ad blocking software. I understand websites need to make money or they wouldn't be around. I will ocassionally click on an ad, but it has to be relevant for me. That said since others don't like ads and the site has to be funded somehow, the fundraising goal would be a good way to get the ads to disappear.

Edit:
Also while I'm thinking about it, another idea could be for those who have advertisting in their signature to give a portion of sales generated from it towards twisty similar to how a traditional web ad would work.

-d

Sandy,

I am small fry in this community and a relative newcomer. I personally don't mind what you do to keep the site running as long as it does keep running. I should imagine that the bandwidth costs must be astronomical for such a busy site and anything you can do to help will be OK with all the TP members. The bandwidth could be decreased by having access only to people who have logged in rather than all and sundry who surf by.

May I suggest, however, that you set up a donation button on your site so that those of us who appreciate what you do can help you maintain the service we enjoy so much. It would not be mandatory, but it would be nice for us to help and for you to realise that we like what you do enough to put our hands in our bank accounts. You could even have a page which acknowledges donors (being discrete enough not to mention amounts unless you thought it might make us more generous!) and it would be a matter of pride to have our names and the date of a donation visible to all.

It's just a suggestion but you would certainly know who your supporters were and I suspect that with the maturity of the members of this forum you might be surprised how many of us do pay something. Obviously some are unemployed, or students or on low income and no-one can expect them to cough up unless they could really afford it but many puzzles discussed on this site are VERY VERY expensive. If someone will pay $100s for a single puzzle then they could easily help you. I know I would do so immediately.

I agree that the banners are initially annoying, but eventually they just fade into the background (and, sshhh, I didn't say this, but now and again they are quite relevant for me). If they work well and bring in enough money, great.

I personally would also support either a yearly fee which would get rid of the adverts once you logged on, and also a donate button which would fund the site. As many have said, my yearly spend on puzzles, which I would not have spent if not for these forums, dwarfs a $20 donate or members fee.

Regarding trial periods I think you need to be careful. Despite warnings about click fraud I suspect initially you will get lots of clicks. Also if you ask for donations again I suspect you will get a lot. I believe these will be initial peaks and tail off considerably. To get an accurate picture the subject needs to be forgotten for a while and then see what income is like.

Advertising is on pretty much every common website. It's pretty difficult to think of one that doesn't have ads, and especially on forums. I don't see what's wrong with advertising on any website. Pop-up ads are terrible, though. I feel like, even if it's a product I may have wanted to look into, I feel like the product gets a negative reputation in my mind because I associate it with the feeling of "annoyed".

The top and right are good spots. They're seamless with the page there. It looks nice when there isn't a left-side adbar. This is my recommendation if you do end up changing the layout a little.

I love the donation button and also the yearly fee. I don't ever want to see twisty puzzles to die because this is a very big part of my life and it also makes me very happy. I'll do want I can to help you but thats all. Sorry about that.

First let me say, the ads are really promotive. Some days ago I searched for USB stick on a completely independent domestic site, then ads of exactly the items I visited were mysteriously shown here. This kept a few days and is truly ... unexpected. While I was just searching to know the current price of the items, I did successfully stop the temptations. Then a few days later, the ads went blindly and irrelevant. It thinks, amazing.

I'm fully positive with ad trial and it would be great if members can have a choice like donation or somehow. These days, paid members of public forums is really common, especially when there're business around it. To avoid abuse of specific banners and keep the neutrality of the forum, I think it is right to import ads from 3rd party rather than related business.

P.S.
Why the word 'promotive' was red under-waved when editing?

The seemingly relevant / targeted ads are indeed, targeted ads. When you see an ad like this:


That has the "AdChoices" icon:


You're seeing a targeted advertisement. Google uses this heavily so almost every advertisement will be targeted. The amount of information Google gathers based on the sites you browse is staggering. This is why they've been the biggest player in the advertising market and how they make most of their billions.

The idea is that if Google can show you advertisements you actually want to see then you're much more likely click and purchase something which is good for the advertiser, good for Google, and supposedly good for you.

See http://adsense.blogspot.com/2011/03/new ... -icon.html for more info.

Some ads though, you gotta wonder how in the world you wound up getting on their list. Like, for example, the banner ad I see now is for audio books (which kinda makes sense since I'm a writer) and the side bar one is for arrest records (which has absolutely no relevance to me or my internet history whatsoever...). My biggest guess would be that other people with similar browsing habits also browse those things and they associate me with those other people (sort of like on shopping sites where it says "People who bought this also bought: [list of other products]"). I may be wrong, but that's my best guess.

Another hypothesis I had was that maybe certain advertisements are set up to trick the selection algorithm into thinking this ad is more relevant to people than it really is.

and of course, there's always the possibility that they throw out all logic and give you the most bizarre distracting ads they can think of...

Ooh, I like ideas 3a and 3b! I'm on the same page as Darren here; Twisty Puzzles are a big part of my life, and I'd be happy to contribute.

Good luck on that job search! (If you tell us what you're looking for, I'm sure there's someone on the forum who could drop your name around the water cooler.)

-Eitan

How about our very own auction section.Ebays costs these days are very high so why not do your own,with similar rules of course but minus the exorbant charges involved.All payments by paypal (no gift types allowed) ect,a very small percentage of the sale could then be the fee for the right to sell in that section.It works on another cycle related forum i am a member of..?

Now that about a month has passed is there enough data to draw any conclusions about advertising revenue?

I must say that, after a month has passed, I've become used to the ads so I visually skip them without even noticing. In the beginning they were pretty annoying because they were where the main menu used to be, but now I'm happy with them, and I guess other members will agree with that.

For Sandy that is a bad thing.

What can we do? Make a pact to pay more attention to the ads?

We can't do anything but it's up to how serious and aggressive Sandy wants to be. Finding a balance between annoyance and acceptability is like walking a tightrope. The hotspot map I showed earlier in this thread gives an indication of where ads perform the best. Choosing the best ad type and network is also important. Plus on a forum putting ads between posts or at the end of some should be considered. I am not saying I want any of that but it's something that has to be considered. Ads need to relevant and noticeable.

It was mostly an answer to the previous post. IF the revenue from the ads is good enough (for casual users of the site I suppose, not from the ones that use it every day...), THEN I think the ads should stay because they are not as intrusive as they seemed to be the first days.

We cannot say that the ads make the site looks better, but for me, the ads are showing products based on cookies that are present in my computer's temporary files, and most of then are from web sites i did visited.

BTW the quoted suggestion from gabrielmpf in my opinion is a very clever suggestion ; )