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 Post subject: Question regarding doctrinaire twisty puzzles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:28 pm 
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Hey everyone- These questions show I've got some catching up to do on old threads.

Jumbling and doctrinaire puzzles are mutually exclusive, right?
Helicopter, 24 cube, Big Chop, Chopasaurus are all non-doctrinaire, right?
Skewb, FTC (ie 3x3x3), Megaminx, and Pentultimate are all doctrinaire, right?

A jumbling puzzle can have a doctrinaire subset of moves, such as 120 degree turns on the Radiolarian. But it would be considered NOT doctrinaire. Only those moves would be called doctrinaire moves, right?

The definition of a doctrinaire puzzle on twistypedia:

http://twistypedia.oskarvandeventer.nl/ ... octrinaire
A puzzle where if you were to remove all the coloration then every single position would look exactly the same. The Rubik's Cube is a doctrinaire puzzle, as is the Skewb and Megaminx.

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 Post subject: Re: Question regarding doctrinaire twisty puzzles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
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JasonSmith wrote:
Jumbling and doctrinaire puzzles are mutually exclusive, right?
Correct! Bram was the first to define these terms and I still fall back to his definitions myself when questions come up. I'll look up the link and post it later when I have time if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.
JasonSmith wrote:
Helicopter, 24 cube, Big Chop, Chopasaurus are all non-doctrinaire, right?
Correct! Though I don't have a Big Chop or Chopasaurus (wish I did) on hand to double check but I'm pretty sure both jumble.
JasonSmith wrote:
Skewb, FTC (ie 3x3x3), Megaminx, and Pentultimate are all doctrinaire, right?
Correct!
JasonSmith wrote:
A jumbling puzzle can have a doctrinaire subset of moves, such as 120 degree turns on the Radiolarian. But it would be considered NOT doctrinaire. Only those moves would be called doctrinaire moves, right?
Does the puzzle allow the non-doctrinaire moves? If so, yes the puzzle is a jumbling puzzle (NOT doctrinaire). However if someone were to make a Helicopter Cube which only allowed 180 degree turns that would BE a doctrinaire puzzle and I would hope they'd give it a different name. Otherwise conversations like this could get confusing (or maybe I should say even more confusing)

Does that help?
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Question regarding doctrinaire twisty puzzles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:55 pm 
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Here is the link.

Bram wrote:
Let's define a 'doctrinaire' puzzle as one where if you were to remove all the coloration then every single position would look exactly the same. The Rubik's Cube is a doctrinaire puzzle, as is the Skewb and Megaminx. Also the Sphere Xyz, Chromo Ball, Puck puzzles, and a bunch of other puzzles which don't have slices like a Rubik's Cube but still have permutations.

A shape mod is a non-doctrinaire puzzle which can be shape modded to a doctrinaire puzzle. The Fisher Cube is a shape mod, as is the Mixup Cube.

A bandage puzzle is a non-doctrinaire one where by cutting the pieces into smaller parts it's possible to transform it into a doctrinaire puzzle.

A jumble puzzle is one which is non-doctrinaire but where it isn't possible to shape mod or unbandage it into a doctrinaire puzzle. Examples include the Helicopter Cube, 24-cube, Jumbleprism, Uncanny Cube, and Battle Gears.

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 Post subject: Re: Question regarding doctrinaire twisty puzzles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:57 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
JasonSmith wrote:
A jumbling puzzle can have a doctrinaire subset of moves, such as 120 degree turns on the Radiolarian. But it would be considered NOT doctrinaire. Only those moves would be called doctrinaire moves, right?
Does the puzzle allow the non-doctrinaire moves? If so, yes the puzzle is a jumbling puzzle (NOT doctrinaire). However if someone were to make a Helicopter Cube which only allowed 180 degree turns that would BE a doctrinaire puzzle and I would hope they'd give it a different name.

This was the point I was going to make. I'd say the Helicopter cube is doctrinaire unless you allow jumbling moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Question regarding doctrinaire twisty puzzles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:17 pm 
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I would argue against that, but I'm being a little pedantic. :P IMO there are already three classes of puzzles which all have good names:

1) Doctrinaire puzzles, which do not jumble at all (for example, Rubik's Cube)
2) Jumbling puzzles, which can jumble but are not required to (for example, the Helicopter Cube)
3) Jumbling-only puzzles, where non-jumbling moves are impossible (for example, the Face Turning Deltoidal Icositetrahedron)

Edit: Sorry, I should have paid a bit more attention. I agree that if you had a mechanism inside a jumbling puzzle that prevented jumbling, the puzzle would be doctrinaire.


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 Post subject: Re: Question regarding doctrinaire twisty puzzles
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Jared wrote:
1) Doctrinaire puzzles, which do not jumble at all (for example, Rubik's Cube)
2) Jumbling puzzles, which can jumble but are not required to (for example, the Helicopter Cube)
3) Jumbling-only puzzles, where non-jumbling moves are impossible (for example, the Face Turning Deltoidal Icositetrahedron)
This is exactly what I wanted to post.

I still do not like the label "jumbling puzzle" on something like the Helicopter Cube. It sounds misleading. More precise: It leads the puzzle to the third category.
With respect to solving: I think these puzzles have more in common with the first category.


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