Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:36 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
malevolant wrote:
Rouricht wrote:
End of an era... I realy start to hate this.

The time when we built puzzles and were proud of it because they were so rare and hard to get and only a few people had them... Back this times the puzzles had something special... They were amazing because of their proud and shine... Today its just "Ah cool puzzle i think i'll buy it."

Custom Cubes lost their glamour and uniqueness.


I disagree. The original handmade pieces are obviously still a treasure, and the time, sweat, and blood that went into building them makes them infinitely more valuable than mass produced versions. These mass produced versions merely enable puzzlers to all have a chance to solve your treasures.
This topic seems to come up alot and its another one that tends to derail a fair number of threads so I figured it should have a thread of its own. I wouldn't be surprised if there already was one but I couldn't find it.

Anyways... my take on this is that its just the way of things. The first cars were hand built and were labors of love. Same goes with airplanes... and just about anything that has ever been mass produced. If you make something by hand and it has value then by that very nature others will try to find ways to make it cheaper/better/faster. Those that let themselves get upset by this I sort of view as being hypocritical if they are driving a mass produced car or have ever riden in a mass produced airplane.

And I too agree with malevolant. Just as the very first and rarest cars still have value so do the handmade puzzles.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
If mass production does end and era, then it also started it: without the original mass produced 3x3x3 this forum wouldn't be there.

I think it is important to realize that we've seen an explosion of creativity with Shapeways. Literally hundreds of new puzzles are realized each year now. Cubing has also greatly gained in popularity. It seems simple to me: more customers and more potential products => more mass produced puzzles. Despite the many mass produced puzzles, there are more "dream" puzzles out there than there ever were: just look in any Shapeways shop and you'll find more custom puzzles than you can ever afford and I'm certain most of them will never be mass produced.
If anything ended the era of awesome, rare puzzles, it was Shapeways. Shapeways made it possible to create new puzzles and build however many copies you want without very much effort. It's at a premium price, but it's hardly anything compared to the cost of making the typical puzzle by hand/casting.

For me, having something mass produced is not really financially attractive, but still I'll take any offer I can: the more people can enjoy a puzzle the better. I don't want to be selfish and keep everything I make just for the select few who can afford the Shapeways premium.

_________________
Tom's Shapeways Puzzle Shop - your order from my shop includes free stickers!
Tom's Puzzle Website


Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:48 am
Location: In Front Of My Teraminx (saying WTF?)
A long time ago, even the simplest puzzle was amazing

for example the 1x2x5: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12713

now, a 1x2x5 would just be ridiiculous. I do think it's disappointing. Now a little chop is not really a big deal. Mass production is nice indeed, but it makes us want to do more and more complex puzzles because those are the only ones that stay unique. Soon, puzzle design will just lose its purpose.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop!
My Designs
My Official Results
My Website on Twisty Puzzles with Gears

Grégoire Pfennig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:21 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA
RubixFreakGreg wrote:
A long time ago, even the simplest puzzle was amazing

for example the 1x2x5: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12713

now, a 1x2x5 would just be ridiiculous. I do think it's disappointing. Now a little chop is not really a big deal. Mass production is nice indeed, but it makes us want to do more and more complex puzzles because those are the only ones that stay unique. Soon, puzzle design will just lose its purpose.

I would disagree. While complex puzzles can be amazing, I think the creativity matters more than how complex a puzzle design is. For me, the 1x2x5 was so interesting because it was made of legos, and because it used a new mechanism that can be used to make any 1x2xn puzzle. I see nothing wrong with this system; it encourages people to make new and innovative puzzles, and that doesn't always mean making the most complex puzzle with the greatest number of pieces possible. Sure, larger and larger puzzles will always be amazing for how difficult they are to design, but there are plenty of simpler puzzles that can be just as interesting.

_________________
Katniss wrote:
Only on this forum would people use a V-cube 7 as a size comparison for a cat :lol:

My Shapeways shop


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:35 am
For every puzzle that is mass produced, there are thousands that are not. I don't think mass production of puzzles will ever reach the point where no new puzzles can be created by puzzle enthusiasts.
Although some might consider Shapeways a method of mass production of sorts, I view it as just another tool for creating new and unique puzzles on demand and they are still works of art considering the work that went into designing them.
If a puzzle that you're proud of building by hand gets mass produced, that should give you incentive to create something new.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:52 am
I don't understand this wish and even need of people that puzzles must be something rare in the first place.
You don't buy yourself a new fast, comfortable or usefull car thinking "I whish this wasn't mass produced." You normally obviously don't collect cars, but still why must puzzles be rare? They are cool toys. Even if you don't value twistypuzzles as challenge but just as collectors item, why is a production puzzle worth less (meaning the spirit, not the actuall value it sells for)?

Also everything delevelops, that's just natural. Knowledge grows as much as technoligy. So a 1x2x5 isn't the puzzle of the year anymore. So? The custom twistypuzzles grow too. Drew's Chopasaurus and TheDrizzle's little chop are still the most complex puzzles (I think). If one of them is produced some day in the future, bet you someone will have build something bigger.

I totally respect certain builders of the forum, who don't want to see their special puzzles mass produced and I wouldn't hope for it to happen anyway, due to respect and understanding. Let alone saying on the forum that I wish a puzzle would be mass produced, that's from a builder who I know, doesn't think so.
But in my eyes it is just dumb no matter who you are to mind the production of other and even all new ideas concerning twistypuzzles completely. You either like twistypuzzles, than you will like to see a new one beeing invented and also made available for masses (again: unless it is your design, ok) or you hate every new puzzle on the market, than you don't like twistypuzzles at all. Nothing else makes sense to me.

I like twistypuzzles. I like collecting them. I like mass produced puzzles and the reason is not that I am thrilled about anything that's cheap. I am not a builder. If I was I would try to get my ideas to production (100% sure). This would not be because of the profit.

_________________
Life is simple.
eat. sleep. train. repeat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
My take on this is simple. If affordable 3D design programs like SolidWorks weren't available, and Shapeways did not exist, then we would not be having this discussion. The only option would be to depend on very clever people who can sketch design ideas like, for example, the the V-Cube mech (have you seen the patent?), and obtain patents, and then afford the costs of putting it into injection moulding machines, to create the puzzle.

Being able to design and realise a complex 3D design is a recent privilege which we should be glad for. It allows us to buy incredible puzzles which would not exist otherwise at a price which, considering the numbers made, is very cheap. And when they do go into MP, then all of us who could not afford the initial price can celebrate. Huzzah!

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm
Location: Montana
Mass production allows for improvement. We've seen this with the famed Cube itself. 45-degree cuts, frictionless and smooth feel, stickers specifically designed for the wear of cubing...We don't see that on the original Rubik's Cubes. Car analogy: they are far safer, more fuel efficient, much quicker, and much cheaper now because of how many different inventors put in their own twists. Cars are some of the top educational models too. The hands-on experience of constructing one is something that a growing number of students at universities and technical schools are getting to do. A good number of people I know personally own their own project car, which is super cheap and often used beyond functionality, simply so they can fix it up and make it better.

Sure, some people have their feelings hurt along the way. Sometimes more than feelings, too. But this is a truth that must be faced- in order to make progress on a larger scale, we can't make everyone happy.

_________________
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Things like this are illegal.
If not I will pass an appropriate law.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:58 am
TomZ wrote:
If mass production does end and era, then it also started it: without the original mass produced 3x3x3 this forum wouldn't be there.

I think it is important to realize that we've seen an explosion of creativity with Shapeways. Literally hundreds of new puzzles are realized each year now. Cubing has also greatly gained in popularity. It seems simple to me: more customers and more potential products => more mass produced puzzles. Despite the many mass produced puzzles, there are more "dream" puzzles out there than there ever were: just look in any Shapeways shop and you'll find more custom puzzles than you can ever afford and I'm certain most of them will never be mass produced.
If anything ended the era of awesome, rare puzzles, it was Shapeways. Shapeways made it possible to create new puzzles and build however many copies you want without very much effort. It's at a premium price, but it's hardly anything compared to the cost of making the typical puzzle by hand/casting.

For me, having something mass produced is not really financially attractive, but still I'll take any offer I can: the more people can enjoy a puzzle the better. I don't want to be selfish and keep everything I make just for the select few who can afford the Shapeways premium.


This precisely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:00 am
Location: Germany, Siegerland
Mass production of what is the end of an era?
When 3x3x3, 4x4x4, 5x5x5 and Pyraminx became mass produced, the era hasn't even started.

_________________
Timur aka Shim
Signed Vulcanos ($48), Pillow Pyraminxes ($22)
Come visit my Shapeways shop


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:16 pm
To me in particular mass production means "easier way to get twisty puzzles for a resonable price".
It's not that I wouldn't pay for a masterpiece made by TomZ or Oskar, it's just that I can't. Maybe I can spare 30 dollars a month, but If I'm about to pay 200 dollars plus taxes in my country(100% of the price of the product plus shipping costs), I would probably have enough money to buy maybe one or two per year.
Mass production makes it more viable for me to buy new puzzles and I think it is also a catalist for more puzzle builders to create new things.
And, in fact, I do prefer the quality of the plastic of a mass produced than the one material used in Shapeways, in exception of the horrible Mosaic Cube.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:14 pm
Location: Orange County, CA
I definitely think that we are leaving the era of handmade custom puzzles. There will always be builders like Tony and SmaZ that continue to build high quality puzzles by hand, but I think the majority of builders will turn to 3d printing.

It is a shame that the "art" of custom puzzles is being lost. However 3D printing opens up all sorts of new potentials mechanically. Puzzle designers are doing things now that were considered impossible 2-3 years ago. Shapeways has a lot to do with it; by offering processes like SLS for such insanely cheap prices it opens up a lot of doors for experimentation and creativity that weren't available before.

I'm sure Aleh would challenge me to this claim, but I'd say that a majority of the custom 3d printed puzzles that are being made today would be impossible to build by hand.

_________________
-Garrett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:42 pm
Location: A Coruña - Spain
Hello, then I, and people like me who keep doing puzzles by hand wasting our time?

Some time ago I'm debating with myself the chance to return to my beginnings, build my designs just for me, I think over time this is what I will.

It is even possible not to build more puzzles.

At one point I did some designs on Shapeways and thought about them for sale, but I did not feel good about myself, I like to use my hands.

After reading all this, I think back to the future of my puzzles.

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
I like the designs and puzzles made by shapeways. It takes a certain skill to make the computer do what you want it to (lord knows I can't even get the zip thing to work.)

But.....

I love the puzzles made by hand! They are just so much better to me. I'd buy a hand made over a shapeways any day.

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
katsmom wrote:
I love the puzzles made by hand! They are just so much better to me. I'd buy a hand made over a shapeways any day.

I could not agree more!

_________________
Tony Fisher wrote:
I believe it would work best with black plastic.

My puzzles in the Museum
My Website
My Youtube Channel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:39 pm
Location: Marquette, MI, USA
Sadly I believe it is coming to an end, however I am not entirely happy with it either. I use 3-d printing quite a bit, but it doesn't mean that hand made puzzles or cast puzzles don't measure up in my view. In fact I think they are much better, I have made a few myself, and I hope to continue to do so just as I hope others do too. In fact I am also getting ready to purchase master parts to cast a couple of pentagonal prisms.

I think it is coming to an end, but only to a certain extent.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
I think it depends on what you like. For example I happen to love traiphum's work, but I don't think you will ever see that on Shapeways. What point would there be to print a shape mod of a common puzzle (say, 4x4x4)? The beauty of those puzzles isn't that they offer a radical new puzzle challenge (well, it is a bit different) but in that they are so well made.

So if you want a new puzzle challenge Shapeways is making amazing strides in realizing new puzzles, but if you want works of art handwork is often still the place to go. Not that a Shapeways puzzle can't be beautiful, but because some of us appreciate what went into making the hand done version.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:11 am
Location: Italy
I remember in 2005....a Tony fisher puzzle you could buy on ebay was about a very high price.....I remember golden cube...500 or mre USD...and other puzzles you actually can buy for 10 USD....they went for 300-500 USD......I remember the Gigaminx for 2000 USD...or the Crystal Pyraminx hand made...over 2000 USD....yes this is a new era, if you could now buy this puzzles at less then 50 USD....
I think that if could have a time machine and come back to 2005 with my actual collection I could be very reach.....
One thing is for sure...the new puzzle era destroyed the Tony Fisher and other hand made puzzlebuilders empire.....not so good for this guys....but it's good for all puzzle community..... :wink: :wink: :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Does mass production mean the end of an era?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:39 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 2:32 am
Location: San Francisco, CA
I'd hazard a guess that Shapeways has only slightly reduced the overall hours spent hand-making custom puzzles by dedicated crafters like Tony, Traiphum and others. And when those crafters have used 3d-printing it's to achieve production volume and consistency that could not be done by hand.

That's just hard to see when the speed and production volume of printed (and then mass-produced puzzles) is orders of magnitude higher than with hand-crafted puzzles.

Personally, I'm thrilled. IMHO, valuing scarcity is like gaining pleasure from denying things to others - elitist and backwards. When I craft something digitally I relish the "and I'm the only one in the world with it!" for about 10 seconds, then go about figuring how to get it out to as many people as possible.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Door, GuiltyBystander and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group