Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:44 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else?
Angry 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Ashamed 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Disappointed 43%  43%  [ 9 ]
Disrespected 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
Embarrassed 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sad 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
Sick 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Anything else 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 21
Author Message
 Post subject: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:43 am
So, yeah, are you disappointed that KO's appear? I just want to let people share opinions, hope this will not be another KO argument :D

_________________
I thought a Fisher's cube were for fishermen, instead of a cube named after its inventor. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:43 pm
Location: Shelby Township, MI. USA
Considering KOs have been around since the original Rubik's Cube became popular in the early 80s I can't say that any of the above really apply because they have just been part of this hobby for as long as I have.

What disappoints me is the hypocrisy I see many have when it comes to KOs. They accept some without question but them jump all over anyone who even mentions some others.

The reality about KOs is that they are here, have always been here, and aren't going away. What we should be concerning ourselves with are why they are here and why people buy them:

- They are generally cheaper, though often they are less quality too (you get what you pay for).
- They are sometimes easier to find/purchase than the real thing.
- They are sometimes actually higher quality than the official product (this is the case when many will overlook the fact that it's a KO because they want that better speed cube).

It's hard to beat the KOs on price, especially when they really are cheap low quality product. But when the KOs become better quality products, and sometimes even at a better price, and they are also easier for people to buy then that is the real problem that the manufactures need to step up and tackle.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: Hungary, Budapest
KO question is not easy to answer!
In most of th cases it is sad that some company stole another inventor's idea.
But in some case I'm happy to see it. For example the 11x11x11 cube (I really doubt that Mr. Verdes will ever release it)

_________________
Olivér Nagy

rubikkocka@gmail.com & info@oliverstickers.com
http://oliverstickers.com/

Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Olivér Nagy wrote:
In most of th cases it is sad that some company stole another inventor's idea.

I did not check all discussions in this forum on KOs, but (see also my post here) isn't it merely copying in an exact way instead of stealing an idea?

By stealing an idea you can still make something new & orginal from it. It's even common use in patenting: the original inventor can patent a basic idea -which then turns into 'current state of art'- but another inventor can work upon such idea towards boundaries or applications the original inventor did not think of (or did not want to include).

Copying imho is no nice action towards the original inventor (it brings nothing new), but legally it can be OK if no protection is arranged. But creating something new by inspiration from an example can bring nice new items.

As far as I understand up till now, a Knock-Off is no addition to the original. Correct?
Then my opinion in the poll would be something like: it's brings no extra flavour, is flavourless when the original is known/there. And it's profiting from someone other's original idea (who probably did not have enough sources to protect and/or produce his idea sufficiently. And that's sad).

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Splinter wrote:
I did not check all discussions in this forum on KOs, but...
Please don't get the opinion that we don't allow any discussion about what comprises a KO, but before commenting on KO topics it is a good idea to read up about the history of discussion. Those of us who have spent a lot of time explaining this to others don't necessarily feel like retyping it all because you can't be bothered to read what has already been written (and likely answers your questions).

It is true that finding *all* the comments on KO issue would take a lot of time and searching. It is, however, quite simple to cover the basics as the main thread is a sticky topic in General and pointed to by the rules.

If you wish a good sense of what I don't want to retype, search for "respect" with author "DLitwin". This should give you plenty to read, and a perspective on why trying to come up with detailed rules on what should or should not be considered a KO misses the point.

Dave :)

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm
Location: Montana
Volitar Prime wrote:
But when the KOs become better quality products, and sometimes even at a better price,
If this ever becomes true, and it has in several cases, then the company offering the KO has 'won'. Better quality for cheaper and easier to buy... If they can manage this, they have earned their way into my hands at least. My best speedcubes are what I myself consider to be knock-offs. As a customer, I would be losing money for a lower quality product just to stay original. This doesn't mean the original producer can't step it up. Rubik's storebought cubes don't stand a chance in quality to the ones we're familiar with. They are more expensive in many cases. But their availability being so easy has made the company successful for over 30 years.

Some products are KO-proof. The Cubedron, for example, is one. I don't know if there is a KO for it, or if one is in the making. That I haven't heard of it means I'll take Mindstrat's because it's a unique puzzle I can only find in one place. If you really want to make a product that isn't going to be knocked off, look for examples like this: ones that only you can produce. I'll keep buying from the original if I don't know about any other options. That is another reason why Rubik's Cubes have remained top sellers: so widely available it covers up the other options to people who don't do their research.

Until recently I would have argued the exact opposite point. To answer the original question, I used to be but am no longer upset by KOs. Sure, they may make people upset and can cause trouble with the original producers/inventors. But they make this world's economy stand. And if someone copies another, does that not mean the copier trusts the original? It must be a great idea to want to invest mass production for. Such a great idea, that I hope the inventor finds it great enough to fight for. If the inventor loses hope in the idea, I cannot find myself respecting the original product.


Here I provide an example. If this feels inciteful, just tell me and I'll remove this before anyone argues about it:
Every world record in speedsolving a cube is held by a V-mech cube as far as I know. I may be overlooking one. This goes to say how great Verdes thus V-Cubes can potentially be. I'll happily buy a V-Cube 4x4x4 as long as it can prove its worth over my V-Mech KO 4x4x4. In fact, I can't wait and when I play with my own 4x4x4 I get anxious to see how V-Cubes will do their own. The problem V-Cubes has to beat is quality: I already know how the inside is going to look and I've already played with cubes using that mechanism. There is room for improvement. My money is asking if I will get to see that improvement from the inventor.

EDIT: Rest of comment omitted. Additionally, I'd like to emphasize that the above arguments are only my stance for a product that exceeds the quality of the original. This is not the case in a majority of KO products.

_________________
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Things like this are illegal.
If not I will pass an appropriate law.


Last edited by Ender Delphiki on Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Ender Delphiki wrote:
...for V-Cubes to decide if they want to win this fight.
I think my comments from this post are still relevant to this subject, and your follow up three posts later as well.

Does anyone honestly think Verdes doesn't *want* to win this particular market? Deciding you want to win and winning are two very different things. This thread has a bit to say about that. I can imagine the current economy in Greece hasn't necessarily made things easier for this effort.

Regarding assumptions about costs and abilities to product puzzles, here are some thoughts.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Thanks for all directions to posts. I already noticed this is a 'hot' topic.

Quote:
By saying "maximize profit" you take for granted he is making a profit on his existing line. Given the piracy, I don't think that is can be assumed. If he can't make money on one color, offering another is a foolish waste of money he might not have. Don't assume you know his business and is needlessly denying you what you want. Just because people want something doesn't mean you can make money selling it to them. Enough people have to want it at the right price and you have to recover development costs. Pirates jump in with a head start and (in most cases) lower production costs. It isn't in any way fair to say because a knock off exists that there is money a producer is leaving on the table. Opportunity is not equal, particularly when one party is stepping on another to get ahead. As for "works out for you", a pirate's misfortune does not help you. You are still down 25 puzzles that would have been your sales.


and Dave's 2009 finance here.

Is there any further knowledge which KO manufacturers indeed really profit (and how much)?
The ones that keep on bringing new KOs just because they already made profit on earlier ones and know that new KOs will probably do the same for them?


As far as protection goes, for my book it's quite simple luckily: I paid Euro 8,25 to register for an ISBN-number (after registration for my wife's business at ISBN, which costs around Euro 40,-). And included the copyright text in the book. In the Netherlands (and elsewhere) copyright on books/texts is quite strong.
And: the national library has documented a copy of my work, so I have more (objective) ways to always be able to indicate I'm the original creator and thus rightfull copyright owner. Besides of having the original files from which the book was created.

I'm thinking of creating actual puzzle(s) when I've the time to do so. Not to get a (huge) profit from it, that would need too hard work for too unsure outcome. Better stick with my daily job to have money to keep up my hobby projects :lol:
And I don't fear that KOs will come, I initially fear the production costs as I'm too well familiar with these regarding regular production techniques. (Still have to look what price-level Shapeways has on volume/weight)

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:43 am
Now I wish I shouldn't made this topic...

_________________
I thought a Fisher's cube were for fishermen, instead of a cube named after its inventor. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm
Location: Montana
DLitwin wrote:
Ender Delphiki wrote:
...for V-Cubes to decide if they want to win this fight.
I think my comments from this post are still relevant to this subject, and your follow up three posts later as well.

Does anyone honestly think Verdes doesn't *want* to win this particular market? Deciding you want to win and winning are two very different things. This thread has a bit to say about that. I can imagine the current economy in Greece hasn't necessarily made things easier for this effort.

Regarding assumptions about costs and abilities to product puzzles, here are some thoughts.

Dave

I guess I'll remove that statement from my post. It is too extreme, I'll admit. Again, until very recently I would be arguing the exact opposite position.

_________________
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Things like this are illegal.
If not I will pass an appropriate law.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:22 am
Ender Delphiki wrote:

Here I provide an example. If this feels inciteful, just tell me and I'll remove this before anyone argues about it:
Every world record in speedsolving a cube is held by a V-mech cube as far as I know.



Well, no, the 2x2 WR is held by a [removed] (as far as I know) and the best 2x2 cubers use a witeden.
The best 3x3 records have been set with dayans, which use a mechanism far away from the V-cube 3 designs.
And is the 4x4 used by Mats Valk V-cube mechanism? Propably yes, but the cube that is using exactly their mechanism is way worse then the WR cube.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm
Location: Montana
EMI94100 wrote:
Well, no, the 2x2 WR is held by a [removed] (as far as I know) and the best 2x2 cubers use a witeden. The best 3x3 records have been set with dayans, which use a mechanism far away from the V-cube 3 designs. And is the 4x4 used by Mats Valk V-cube mechanism? Propably yes, but the cube that is using exactly their mechanism is way worse then the WR cube.

Dayan 3x3x3 cubes use V-Mech. You may disagree if you'd like. But I look at the V-Cube patent files and the inside of a Dayan and I see a V-mech. This makes me respect Verdes to the design, not dislike the Dayan's choice to use it. I know V-Cubes settled this case with Dayan, and that is their business, not mine. That they settled means they are letting a competitor stay on the market, which means they are confident enough in their strategy to be willing to compete with such a difficult opponent. This is how I think of the situation. I don't see differentiating Dayan from V-Cubes as a way of defending Dayan's amazing quality. In my previous post I asked for an improvement on the 4x4x4. I saw that improvement on the 3x3x3 between Dayan 3 (which was very similar to V-Mech) and Dayan 5 (which is still based on the same mechanism with changes to improve quality). That improvement is there. I'd like to see that on the 4x4x4 now. This stance, in my eyes, is hopeful of V-Cubes. Appreciative that Dayan made that improvement physically proven. And hopeful of V-Cubes to top that improvement.

You are right, I did overlook the 2x2x2. The [removed] was questioned for being a KO of Eastsheen, and I don't want to have that discussion here beyond mentioning that it is *questioned*.

_________________
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Things like this are illegal.
If not I will pass an appropriate law.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:43 am
I rather think that they looked at the patent, made it V-cube design, and then made all these special 'features' to make it look different than a V3. I have a Zhanchi, took it apart last night to look at the mech. They made the pieces curved and the V3 is straight.

_________________
I thought a Fisher's cube were for fishermen, instead of a cube named after its inventor. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Were you disappointed of KO's or angry or something else
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Ender Delphiki wrote:
You are right, I did overlook the 2x2x2. The [removed] was questioned for being a KO of Eastsheen, and I don't want to have that discussion here beyond mentioning that it is *questioned*.
For this site it is considered KO. If you wish to argue that it isn't a direct rip off of the patented East Sheen design please do so in a PM to me and include detailed pictures of the differences. If my understanding is incorrect I will adjust its status.

Dave :)

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group