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 Post subject: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:43 am 
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Hey guys the first video of the knock-off 7x7x7's has surfaced and from the video it looks like they might be better than the v-cubes for half of the price:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_g_LDSs ... bscription


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:52 am 
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They actually look remarkably good. Shame about the sticker quality though...

I wonder if the people over at V-Cubes are taking legal action against this at the minute. But to be brutally honest, these do look slightly better than the proper V-Cubes :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:55 am 
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DragonCuber wrote:
They actually look remarkably good. Shame about the sticker quality though...

I wonder if the people over at V-Cubes are taking legal action against this at the minute. But to be brutally honest, these do look slightly better than the proper V-Cubes :roll:


Yes the do look a little better, what I'm wondering is how much they(V-Cubes) can actually do to stop this.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:04 am 
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I don't think they'd be able to do a lot, the designs have already been copied and passed on to multiple factories by now. There's bound to be many people producing these imitations by now.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 am 
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DragonCuber wrote:
I don't think they'd be able to do a lot, the designs have already been copied and passed on to multiple factories by now. There's bound to be many people producing these imitations by now.


I'm sure there is, I wonder if they are copying and improving the v-cube 6's as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:10 am 
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Synester wrote:
DragonCuber wrote:
They actually look remarkably good. Shame about the sticker quality though...

I wonder if the people over at V-Cubes are taking legal action against this at the minute. But to be brutally honest, these do look slightly better than the proper V-Cubes :roll:


Yes the do look a little better, what I'm wondering is how much they(V-Cubes) can actually do to stop this.


Not a thing. China is more worried about the high end electronics that are being ripped-off than these.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:13 am 
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HK$250 is around US$31. The originals are US$55 right now. And before anyone asks, NO I WON'T go buy you one. I'll tell you right now that shipping will be around US$35 or so. Not worth the cost. Buy the original!

I saw these on one of my puzzle runs last week and it was broken. The seller told me to come back, they would be better next week :lol: Maybe this was what that man was talking about when he said "softer plastic".

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:47 am 
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katsmom wrote:
HK$250 is around US$31. The originals are US$55 right now. And before anyone asks, NO I WON'T go buy you one. I'll tell you right now that shipping will be around US$35 or so. Not worth the cost. Buy the original!

I saw these on one of my puzzle runs last week and it was broken. The seller told me to come back, they would be better next week :lol: Maybe this was what that man was talking about when he said "softer plastic".


Yes it could be, have you heard anything about knockoff V-cube 6's katsmom?


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:08 am 
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The unfortunate thing is that it seems like the Chinese have addressed the two issues that I have with the V-Cubes. The first is that the official V-Cubes are notorious for having some flashing and other imperfections on the pieces which can sometimes be felt when moving them. It has become a common thing for people to take their V-Cubes apart and sand these imperfections off. The second issue I’ve had with V-Cubes is that I feel that the springs are too loose but you can’t adjust them because they used rivets instead of screws. This is especially the case with my V-Cube 6s but also to a smaller extend with my 7s (my 5s are fine). I really wish I could tighten my V-Cubes to help prevent popping. By watching this video it is demonstrated that the Chinese 7 is tighter then the V-Cube 7 though it is not shown if the Chinese one uses rivets or screws.

I doubt that Verdes can do anything about this other than possibly trying to prevent online stores from selling to countries where they have a patent on the V-Cube. They won’t be able to do anything about the manufacture and sale of these within China. They may be able to prevent these from being sold on ebay as I believe that ebay has system in place which they can use.

One thing that I would love to see out of this is improved quality with the manufacturing of the official V-Cubes. If the Chinese can clean up the flashing on the parts and also better adjust the spring tension to prevent popping then I see no reason why Verdes can’t do the same. This will be especially needed with the V-Cube 8 and 9 if they do get produced.

At least the price on these Chinese knock-offs are still rather high when you consider shipping. If they came in at 1/4 of the price of the original (like what is happening with the Void Cubes) then it would cause even more damage to Verdes.

Remember people, the more of these Chinese knock-offs that get sold in place of original V-Cubes, the less likely we are going to see any more V-Cubes get produced.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:12 am 
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I've recently given a speech on counterfeit goods, and believe me... I'm not going to buy one of these knockoffs, it's a terrible shame that the V-Cube line has gotten ripped off, but it was inevitable :P


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:56 am 
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Here is how to keep these off of eBay by using their VeRO (Verified Rights Owner) program:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/vero-rights-owner.html

And eBay also has a policy about replica and counterfeit items:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rep ... rfeit.html

Both of these, especially the VeRO program should be helpful for Verdes and even Gentosha with the fake Void Cubes.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Synester wrote:
DragonCuber wrote:
They actually look remarkably good. Shame about the sticker quality though...

I wonder if the people over at V-Cubes are taking legal action against this at the minute. But to be brutally honest, these do look slightly better than the proper V-Cubes :roll:


Yes the do look a little better, what I'm wondering is how much they(V-Cubes) can actually do to stop this.


I disagree that they look better. That guy has probably lubed them and fixed them by himself.
Or maybe an accidental drop which would cause permanent damage would convince you
(as opposed to the excellent quality of the V-cubes demonstrated by Tony's football test).

In any case, "improvement" is the common excuse many criminals use for copying.
But what is worrying me most, is the free advertising those criminals get from posts like this.
The internet is a huge weapon for good or bad things, and we should all be aware of it.
(is it possible to stop making such posts which indirectly help the criminals?)

Finally, the manufacturing part. I believe they will be stopped. How? Just watch.
(never underestimate the new status quo in China)

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:09 pm 
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These knockoffs are starting to really make me mad. :x When did people lose the sense of respect and honor for others? Wait, I know the answer, ever since humans developed business. And, if you want to know, humans lost their morals the second our species invented the bartering system. Lousy hairless apes, they can't come up with their own 7x7 design, so they ruin a perfectly good puzzle. :evil:

Can I drop kick one? :mrgreen:
(Just trying to add some humor to an unpleasant situation)

-Jon

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:11 pm 
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Give one to Tony :mrgreen:

Let's just hope he doesn't have any aniamls in the area when he does, there will be pieces all over the place :P


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:25 pm 
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DragonCuber wrote:
Give one to Tony :mrgreen:

Let's just hope he doesn't have any aniamls in the area when he does, there will be pieces all over the place :P
I agree. One-eyed squirrels make me sad. :cry: See, these knockoff companies are evil. Not even a scumbag businessman should be able to sleep with poor, little, bushy-tailed, cycloptic rodents on their conscience.

-Jon

EDIT: Tony, can you please turn one into dust? I mean, really. Don't just stop when it's spherical this time. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Oh man, ya beat me too it, but yeah the seem almost better than the V-cubes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:13 pm 
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I think that all of us as a forum should create a petition boycotting these cubes :D


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:36 pm 
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I think that all of us as a forum should create a petition boycotting these cubes


Useful action no. 2: don't purchase the product--no market=no product.

Useful action no. 1: Quit providing all this free advertising! You'll note that in the pages and pages and pages about these knock-offs, this is the first (and only) time I've said anything! This is because posting on an internet forum, good or bad, can essentially provide advertising for free. An now you've provided free testimonial that the knock-off is in fact better quality than the original (based on viewing a youtube video?!?).

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:40 pm 
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the.drizzle wrote:
Quote:
I think that all of us as a forum should create a petition boycotting these cubes


Useful action no. 2: don't purchase the product--no market=no product.

Useful action no. 1: Quit providing all this free advertising! You'll note that in the pages and pages and pages about these knock-offs, this is the first (and only) time I've said anything! This is because posting on an internet forum, good or bad, can essentially provide advertising for free. An now you've provided free testimonial that the knock-off is in fact better quality than the original (based on viewing a youtube video?!?).


No, i said they LOOK to be better quality. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:39 pm 
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No one complained when Televisions were ripped-off and made cheaper, yet this puzzle sure does get the comotion. I personaly think that this will help modders with a cheaper moddable core. The damage IS DONE, so get over it.Hopefully Verdes survives, but if he doesn't, it is part of a business. A sad part, but a true one. If you have a new way to make profit, it will not be yours for long. It is a circle that keeps us going. This cycle makes us constantly make newer and better things to stay ahead of everyone else. Soon I see the V-2, V-3, V-4, V-8, and V-9 launched in a defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Blazemann wrote:
No one complained when Televisions were ripped-off and made cheaper, yet this puzzle sure does get the comotion. I personaly think that this will help modders with a cheaper moddable core. The damage IS DONE, so get over it.Hopefully Verdes survives, but if he doesn't, it is part of a business. A sad part, but a true one. If you have a new way to make profit, it will not be yours for long. It is a circle that keeps us going. This cycle makes us constantly make newer and better things to stay ahead of everyone else. Soon I see the V-2, V-3, V-4, V-8, and V-9 launched in a defense.


Way to have respect for the company that brought us the first ever mass-produced 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 this is how these businesses thrive, by being supported with someone with a way of thinking like you.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Synester wrote:
Blazemann wrote:
No one complained when Televisions were ripped-off and made cheaper, yet this puzzle sure does get the comotion. I personaly think that this will help modders with a cheaper moddable core. The damage IS DONE, so get over it.Hopefully Verdes survives, but if he doesn't, it is part of a business. A sad part, but a true one. If you have a new way to make profit, it will not be yours for long. It is a circle that keeps us going. This cycle makes us constantly make newer and better things to stay ahead of everyone else. Soon I see the V-2, V-3, V-4, V-8, and V-9 launched in a defense.


Way to have respect for the company that brought us the first ever mass-produced 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 this is how these businesses thrive, by being supported with someone with a way of thinking like you.


I agree with the both of you but the truth of this needs to be seen. Yes the chinese did wrong Verdes. Yes somthing should be done about this. But brand loyal people like us (in the big picture) are few and far betwine.
I won't buy a rip-off cube but I do see why it is appealing to the mass public. I appears to perform well & it is half the price of a Verdes. I have respect for anyone who rejects this on a moral scale, but I really can't dock someone who would want to buy one.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Blazemann wrote:
No one complained when Televisions were ripped-off and made cheaper, yet this puzzle sure does get the comotion. I personaly think that this will help modders with a cheaper moddable core. The damage IS DONE, so get over it.Hopefully Verdes survives, but if he doesn't, it is part of a business. A sad part, but a true one. If you have a new way to make profit, it will not be yours for long. It is a circle that keeps us going. This cycle makes us constantly make newer and better things to stay ahead of everyone else. Soon I see the V-2, V-3, V-4, V-8, and V-9 launched in a defense.


If there is going to be damage, it is only from people without ethics who think like you.
And it is not about *us* getting over it. It is about you deciding if you want
to support criminals or not. Why are you encouraging this and trying to persuade us
that "there is no other way"? You do not even have any proof for your arguments.

"Hopefully Verdes survives"? What is the meaning of this? If I was an administrator
I would have banned you in no time for patronizing him in such a rude manner.

Your "using modders" excuse, is the same "improvement" excuse used by those criminals
that I mentioned above. So please stop supporting them, as that will get you nowhere.

I never owned my own cube until I was 25(!), and I never whined or complained about it.
I guess being spoiled is a cool thing, right?

For those who think that what is happening is "right", you need to remember that
as long as you *know* that this is illegal, there is no excuse to buy it.
We are in the twisty puzzle forum, not the "steal all ideas and don't care forum".


Pantazis


PS. This is why those threads/posts should stop. They (1) advertise criminals, and (2) they
give the chance to certain individuals without ethics to surface their "ideas".

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:43 pm 
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The puzzle community is a narrow niche market, and copying other designs without giving credit is always harmful. Very few puzzles have made it to the mass market and become a hit, and in the mass market there is a high enough demand that copying has less effect on the original supplier. Television, for example, was a mass market item, and competitors re-designed the original invention and filed their own patents. This happens a lot in highly competitive industries; the automotive industry for example.

One innovation that is not likely to be copied is the choice of material. The V-Cubes do not use a standard grade ABS like most puzzles. I don't know for sure, but I think they use an ABS/PC blend that is much harder and stronger than plain ABS. I think that buying one copy would be worth it, to make a video of the two cubes being dropped from the same height, and having the copy explode while the original remains completely intact. (that would be a great marketing tool for Verdes)

Finally, even if there is no way to stop the production of the puzzles, it is possible to prevent their sale outside China. This has happened with other items, and resellers were forced to pull the products off their shelves due to patent infringement. Reputable shops will continue to sell genuine puzzles because of the damage to their reputation if they knowingly sell copies.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:47 pm 
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Blazemann wrote:
No one complained when Televisions were ripped-off and made cheaper, yet this puzzle sure does get the comotion. I personaly think that this will help modders with a cheaper moddable core. The damage IS DONE, so get over it.Hopefully Verdes survives, but if he doesn't, it is part of a business. A sad part, but a true one. If you have a new way to make profit, it will not be yours for long. It is a circle that keeps us going. This cycle makes us constantly make newer and better things to stay ahead of everyone else. Soon I see the V-2, V-3, V-4, V-8, and V-9 launched in a defense.


There is a reason that patent law exists. It is to reward the inventor. Otherwise, every time somebody invented something, it would be stolen. Why should somebody invest tons of money and time to invent something, only to see somebody steal it? By letting these things happen takes away the incentive for anybody to try something new. Hopefully Verdes is on top of this and will prevent these cubes from being sold outside of China. I also hope these new puzzles are very easily breakable, and somebody can do a demonstration proving it.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:55 am 
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Useful action no. 1: Quit providing all this free advertising! You'll note that in the pages and pages and pages about these knock-offs, this is the first (and only) time I've said anything! This is because posting on an internet forum, good or bad, can essentially provide advertising for free. An now you've provided free testimonial that the knock-off is in fact better quality than the original (based on viewing a youtube video?!?).


I disagree with you that posting about knock offs and sharing videos is bad. You might be right, that topics and videos are advertising for the knock off cubes in some way. But we on this forum should discuss these things. Even if a video shows a surprising quality (at first view!!!) for a cheap copy of a puzzle. Talking about it and warning people is still more usefull than just looking the other way.
I won't buy any of these even if I found one on the net or even in a store, which I hope will never happen.
I have to admit that this video is distracting me. I expected to see a crapy crapy cube or a bad video making it impossible to really judge the cube. I do see a video that looks good. But still I don't think that the knock off will be as durable as the original nor will it be suitable for speed cubing. And even if someone proofed me and the world that this knock off is in all aspects better thah the original, and even if i knew that Verdes will not go bankrupt or anything, I wouldn't buy one.
My Vcube is perfect screw this thing in the vid
VERDES FOR THE WIN
VERDES FOR EVER
9x9x9 11x11x11 !!!
You guys rule!

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:12 am 
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At the risk of gaining Pantazis wrath, I will say that I have played with both cubes. I wouldn't trust the video. I have no bias one way or the other, and as you probably have surmised, I like the Dian Sheng cubes better than the Rubik's. If a "copy" is better than the original I would say so.

The thing I noticed is that if you have misaligned the knock offs, all they do is send pieces flying. The v-cubes snap into place. For a cube of this size all the work required to make it a smoother turning cube is worth it. In addition to that, I still saw mold lines through the stickers. The same as the v-cubes, and the edge pieces actually pop into halves.

I still say pay the extra money for the original. I am sure you won't be sorry!

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Last edited by katsmom on Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:49 am 
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It is not about my "wrath" any more. Since we know so many details, we might as well post the contacts of the people selling them. :roll:
(I mean, with all the respect, this is where this is heading anyway, just in case some cannot see it).

Talking about the fakes is ONE thing, but talking about them too much, *IS* advertising, and this is why this will be my last post in this thread.



Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:10 am 
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Hmm ...

How much can v-cubes actually do to stop copies and clones?? I guess about as much as coca cola company can, to stop all the coca cola copies/look-alikes around the world. As long as the clones would sell as "v-cubes" at least it would spread the name and make it popular. All clones of the 3x3x3 are today mostly known as RUBIK's cubes after all ...

The v-cubes guys must have seen this coming. In retopspect - i guess it would have been a smart move to jon up with Uwe Meffert for the final production of the v-cubes :wink:

Per

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:31 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
It is not about my "wrath" any more. Since we know so many details, we might as well post the contacts of the people selling them. :roll:

What, Meffert's?
Quote:
Talking about the fakes is ONE thing, but talking about them too much, *IS* advertising, and this is why this will be my last post in this thread.

Very much disagree with that one. The people reading this forum are only a very limited subset of the commercial target market, and they're also the ones most likely to get the original over the copy, and recommend doing so to others. Advertising the existence of the fakes and how to spot them is more likely to result in lost sales than gained sales for the fakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:34 am 
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perfredlund wrote:
...would have been a smart move to jon up with Uwe Meffert for the final production of the v-cubes

Per


I hope Verdes as well as the makers of the Void, Bump and those to come never team up with Mefferts for production.

Meffert's stock of most puzzles always seems to be not much larger than a grocery sack. In one week, sold out the next.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:39 am 
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chuckading wrote:
I hope Verdes as well as the makers of the Void, Bump and those to come never team up with Mefferts for production.

Meffert's stock of most puzzles always seems to be not much larger than a grocery sack. In one week, sold out the next.
He never has enough cash to finance larger runs, I suspect.

You'd think that you could sell the first run for enough profit to finance at least a slightly larger run.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:04 am 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
Here is how to keep these off of eBay

It looks to me like the knockoffs have already hit eBay and they're being sold as the real thing (if the price is any indication). If you look at the low quality images for some being sold you can definitely see the difference. For me there are two very easy ways to tell the difference between a genuine V-Cube and a knockoff. The first, of course, being the logo, or lack thereof, and the second being the corner stickers. They are unattractively too curved on the knockoff. Good luck Verdes...I greatly hope you come out on top of this mess.

The battle is growing. I hope to avoid a war.

- Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:09 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
...from people without ethics who think like you...


R-7 aside, do not insult anybody. And, my ethic are different, not non-existent. Realize that. You are much older, and by assumption, much wiser than me. Maybe I was raised different, maybe in your views wrong, but i do know that my ethics exist. Please forget the R-7 for a moment, and notice this non-R-7 related post.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:12 pm 
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Blazemann wrote:
kastellorizo wrote:
...from people without ethics who think like you...


R-7 aside, do not insult anybody. And, my ethic are different, not non-existent. Realize that. You are much older, and by assumption, much wiser than me. Maybe I was raised different, maybe in your views wrong, but i do know that my ethics exist. Please forget the R-7 for a moment, and notice this non-R-7 related post.



Your ethics support criminals copying puzzles. Have I missed anything here?
And why do you think it is an insult? You ARE supporting criminals!!!


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:31 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Your ethics support criminals copying puzzles. Have I missed anything here?
And why do you think it is an insult? You ARE supporting criminals!!!


Pantazis


No, stop it. I do not support criminals. Now, I am going to stop arguing. I ask that, for sake of no longer bring unnecessary tention, please do not respond to this. And if you must, know I will not respond to yours, I will only read it.


Last edited by Blazemann on Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:35 pm 
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I've been keeping my opinion to myself so far, but its going too far. If I remember correctly, the continuation of the v-cube series depended on the success of the v 5-7. Please, if you want to see the other v-cube products, or any other twistypuzzles that could be reproduced, just buy the original!!! Taking the bait of the knockoff's cheap prices will only scare inventors from sharing their ideas, and hurt the puzzle community in the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:48 pm 
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[quote="Blazemann"]
No, stop it. I do not support criminals./quote]

Buying products from a company that has COMPLETELY taken advantage of Verdes' hard work is absolutely supporting criminals.

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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Garrett wrote:
Blazemann wrote:
No, stop it. I do not support criminals./quote]

Buying products from a company that has COMPLETELY taken advantage of Verdes' hard work is absolutely supporting criminals.


I really want to stop this, please don't quote me again.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese 7x7x7 Video
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Before any more scapegoating & fingerpointing occurs, I'm closing the thread. Please keep discussion in the other (similar) threads civil.

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