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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Not in this forum that has such advertisement on the top
you can e-mail me if you want and i will reply


Last edited by NEWCUBES on Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:38 pm 
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I'm reserving my judgment until later all I have to say is this:

It's awfully strange that this newsletter has been sent out just weeks after Meffert's released a MASSIVE letter condemning bootleggers and knockoffs. He spoke of respecting the original designs and their creators, yet here these two puzzles are, being offered to the public.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:39 pm 
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NEWCUBES wrote:
Not in this forum that has such advertisement on the top
you can e-mail me if you want and i will reply

I ... fail to see the reasoning. If anything, I'd expect the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
Whoa that must be really bad then. How long ago did you mail him?



5 AM EST & two hours ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Thanks, Stefan.

And please consider, that the Hong Kong timezone is UTC +8, so it is about 04:45 AM now there.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:48 pm 
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Let me just say at this point that I find this whole affair rather unsettling.

Obvious issues aside,

- Ton D. points out that the address royalty@Mefferts.com does not work. Uh... oh.

- People have reported that the Verdes crew is not happy about this and have not agreed to these terms.

- The sales copy for these fake seems so wrong, "re-engineered mechanism" the 7x7x7 in question is the same as shown in a recent video (see corner sticker shape) and the mech was shown to be a direct copy of the Verdes design. "327"? More lies I'd say. "long-lasting matt finish environmental PVC labels" - totally fits description of the knock off in the recent video but with sales spin. Ugh... so wrong...

- Why would he call it Holey cube if he wishes to credit the creator?

:| ... ...

I refrain from saying any more before more info comes out.


Last edited by Bounb on Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:01 pm 
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That message has nothing to back it. It's from an anonymous source, with no proof behind it. Speculation and hearsay. And some rather strong accusations to boot. So before we go slamming Mefferts completely, maybe we should stick to what we know, which is not a whole lot other than an email broadcast about the intention of selling some unauthorized reproductions. That alone is giving people some opinions.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, that message violates forum rules, which is probably why Stefan linked to it rather than copying and pasting it here.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:18 pm 
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I wonder if the void cube is the same one as the one on [removed], and if the 7x7 is the same one as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_g_LDSs-Z0

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Flambore wrote:
That message has nothing to back it. It's from an anonymous source, with no proof behind it. Speculation and hearsay. And some rather strong accusations to boot.


Also, if I'm not mistaken, that message violates forum rules, which is probably why Stefan linked to it rather than copying and pasting it here


Yes. I was just posting it to throw it out there, stating that I can neither confirm nor deny it. I question very much some of its claims anyway.
The rule is on quoting private communication and the message was posted publicly.

I've removed it anyway because as you say, strong accusations and no backing.

PotatoSpades22095 wrote:
I wonder if the void cube is the same one as the one on dealextreme, and if the 7x7 is the same one as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_g_LDSs-Z0


Of course one can not say 100% if the 7x7 is identical to the one in that video but the picture on Mefferts.com matches (look at the shape of corner stickers) as does the description "matt finish environmental PVC labels".
:(


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:47 pm 
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So, what's Verdes saying on the subject? I figured I would just sit back and wait for someone to give some info but it's been pretty quiet. So...any news?

- Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:52 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
From the sources I know (and one is a direct source) neither the inventor of the V-cube nor the inventor of the Void cube had ever agreed to any of those terms, which clearly, are being forced without their consent.


Hi Guys, just in now. Sorry, the timezone meant I missed out on all this discussion. Disappointed to see the the inventors were not consulted over this. That would have been a good way to start.

Anyway, Meffert has presented a survey, and we can use our moral judgement and support the two inventors by not voting. Meffert is after our opinion, that's how it can be done correctly.

Thanks to most for the heated but mostly controlled discussion. I understand this is a hot topic for us right now.

Just a note on people emailing Meffert, Verdes or Gentsha, please remember to ask for permission in case you want to report it back here. Quote if you have permission, or summarise if you don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:15 pm 
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I remembered this quote.

sausage wrote:
Those last suggestions won't do for anyone who knows me well enough. :) I'd have prefered to go with God's number and construct a 777 but as you know that's not achieveable. Probably says something.

What about along the lines of "Final Cube". I dunno. It's just a 6x6x6 right now, that list above was good though.



Mr Verdes did the "unachieveable" I think he deserves everyones support in this.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
NEWCUBES wrote:
Not in this forum that has such advertisement on the top
you can e-mail me if you want and i will reply

I ... fail to see the reasoning. If anything, I'd expect the opposite.


and I fail to see why you fail. To me it seems obvious. ;)


On a more serious note, it is a very uncomfortable situation for everyone, including the administrators
whose site has been supported by Uwe. It is their site, our site, where all our puzzles are created
where all our ideas are shown for the first time. I remember Wayne being concerned that being an
administrator of this forum is no longer an easy job, as now it also has an important business reflection.

Now let's see the facts. Meffert has been around for ever, and he surely has some experience.
He believes only one thing can be done to stop the copying, and that is his own solution as presented.
In the past he has been burnt, as he was copied. But now his strategy is partially giving in to the copiers.

Verdes disagrees with Meffert's solution, and demands his rightful rights, expressed by his patent.
The Verdes family had gone through fire and thunders to come where they are now, and they will
surely not allow anyone to use their invention without permission.

My take: Exporting from China is what needs to be stopped. I agree with Uwe that copying will happen anyway,
but I agree with Konstantinos that we must minimise the damage by stopping as many exports as we can,
not allowing them to have new channels. We do not need to chase the middle people who are in China.
But we need to ensure that those people have nowhere to sell them, at least at the target places covered by the patent.

Uwe could help to control the mainland stuff. But exporting through his site, I think, it is a very unnecessary move,
since the V-cubes site are already selling them at this very moment. In my opinion, there is little to no excuse for this.

Also, the forum (our forum) should take measures in preventing fake puzzles being advertised here. Banning should be
the option for anyone trying to do this, and a note about this might be a good idea for the FAQ for new members.

The other big market is ebay. But if we all report such fake links every time we see them on ebay, we can help to prevent this.
It takes a lot more effort for a seller to create a new credit card and username and listings, than a few simple clicks from us while reporting them.
(under every auction, there is a "report this" link, it only takes a couple of minutes)

The battle against piracy *can* be won, as long as there is will, together with the right and logical moves.
Give the thieves no choice, and they will suffocate, instead of them suffocating us.

The puzzle community, the forum, the IPP people, the laws, are all supporting us, to fight piracy.
I repeat, we should neither underestimate nor overestimate the thieves.



Pantazis



PS. All I said are not carved in stone, but I it would be useless to talk and talk without presenting solutions.
The best of all would be all inventors to sit at a table and talk it out with the most logical outcome. Maybe during
some puzzle meeting?

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Last edited by kastellorizo on Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:31 pm 
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The author of the statement would have to give permission to be quoted, therefore making the statement not anonymous (un-anonymously?).

Otherwise it remains hearsay and not credible to be on here.

I'm sure the two manufacturers can discuss this in a private manner and the we'll see the results of that. I have no doubt that the right thing will be done.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:50 pm 
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Very well put Pantazis! I actually did not notice the "Report This Item" link until just now, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Scott Bedard wrote:
Very well put Pantazis! I actually did not notice the "Report This Item" link until just now, thanks!


Your welcome Scott. :)

I have already reported a couple of such sellers whose prices were varying(!).
That said, we should be more organised about this, in the sense that we do not
accidentally report someone who is selling genuine puzzles.

I only wonder whether any of the chinese sellers has actual genuine ones!

:roll:


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Konstantinos has never acted in a proper way... so I can't see the reason why he is complaining about this now. Well deserved.

Anyway, I am sure that Uwe Meffert would not do anything bad for others. Remember that Puzzle business is just his hobby. I totally support and appreciate him.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:49 pm 
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flambore wrote:
if I'm not mistaken, that message violates forum rules, which is probably why Stefan linked to it rather than copying and pasting it here.

Nah, I just don't like unnecessary content duplication. Just like having the same video uploaded dozens of times instead of properly embedding the one original. Also, in case the original poster or a moderator removes it for some reason, I don't want to have to remove it here as well. Partly because I'd have to keep an eye on the original post and that'd just be inconvenient. All that said, I did say "claims" and "anonymous" intentionally. Not saying I doubt it, and I suspect it's from Verdes, but having it posted by someone else and hiding is not exactly something I admire.

kastellorizo wrote:
Stefan Pochmann wrote:
NEWCUBES wrote:
Not in this forum that has such advertisement on the top
you can e-mail me if you want and i will reply

I ... fail to see the reasoning. If anything, I'd expect the opposite.

and I fail to see why you fail. To me it seems obvious.

So... he doesn't like that Meffert is supported here... but instead of adding a negative twist to counter that positive support, he keeps quiet and lets the positive stand alone? Doesn't make sense to me.


Last edited by Stefan Pochmann on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:56 pm 
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I'm not sure either manufacturer has to report back to us on the situation, or owes us any explanation. They might actually serve us better not to inject any comments here while this is pending.

Rather, they should be in discussion privately. Perhaps they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Keeping quiet was the best thing to do. I don't think anyone needs to shove a foot in their mouth as of yet.

Also, whats the big deal, Meffert obviously thinks this is a good idea and he's trying to get a feel for it by sending out a survey. I'm sure after reading a thread like this, he'll more than think twice on it.



Regardless, I buy the real deal, everytime, and for that I'm proud.


Last edited by Derek Tolley on Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:58 pm 
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David Calvo wrote:
Konstantinos has never acted in a proper way... so I can't see the reason why he is complaining about this now. Well deserved.

Anyway, I am sure that Uwe Meffert would not do anything bad for others. Remember that Puzzle business is just his hobby. I totally support and appreciate him.


David, I know you had been hosted by Uwe's family and stayed at his house. So have I. And I had also the luck to do the same at
Verdes house. While I understand that you judge some of the (temperamental - but for a reason) past posts made by Konstantinos,
I would advise to refrain from comments such as "well deserved". Well deserved for what? Patent infringement?
Such comments are of no help at this time.



Stefan Pochmann wrote:
So... he doesn't like that Meffert is supported here... but instead of adding a negative twist to counter that positive support, he keeps quiet and let's the positive stand alone? Doesn't make sense to me.


It is more complex than that. If there is a forthcoming legal battle, everything said can play a vital role.
He represents a company, so he is just trying to be careful.




Regarding everything about this matter, I promise to do anything that I have the power to do,
to ensure this incident has a happy ending. I will not say that I am optimistic or pessimistic,
I just want to say that I will try my best.



Pantazis


PS. And Wayne, you are right.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:05 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
It is more complex than that. If there is a forthcoming legal battle, everything said can play a vital role.
He represents a company, so he is just trying to be careful.


^what he said. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Guys please don't say anything you don't have proof about remember slander is illegal as well


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:55 pm 
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qqwref wrote:

Anyone know if the V-cube patent in China is still pending?



V-cube patent was granted to Mr. Verdes in China as eraly as 2005. The patent No. is CN200480013109.3

Edit: I made a mistake, the patent is still pending...

Attachment:
File comment: First page of the chinese patent of V-cubes.
000001.jpg
000001.jpg [ 271.57 KiB | Viewed 4178 times ]


http://search.sipo.gov.cn/sipo/zljs/hyj ... mzl&title=立方体逻辑玩具&ipc=A63F9/08(2006.01)I#

Attachment:
File comment: Screenshot of the above webpage.
v-cube.jpg
v-cube.jpg [ 117.04 KiB | Viewed 4170 times ]

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Last edited by sokoban on Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:07 pm 
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David Calvo wrote:
Konstantinos has never acted in a proper way... so I can't see the reason why he is complaining about this now. Well deserved.

Anyway, I am sure that Uwe Meffert would not do anything bad for others. Remember that Puzzle business is just his hobby. I totally support and appreciate him.


I disagree, the Verdes family has taken ever nessesary step possible to be a professional company. They have gotten patents around the world and sell a very high quality product. And I hope you aren't implying that having the V-Cubes stolen is "well deserved", because that is not right. I don't think Konstantinos, or Mr. Okamoto, or anyone else for that matter who works so hard to create these beautiful puzzles deserves to be ripped off.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:31 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
It is more complex than that. If there is a forthcoming legal battle, everything said can play a vital role.

That was not his point, not the reason he presented. He didn't say "Not in a public forum", he explicitly said "Not in this forum that has such advertisement on the top".


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:42 pm 
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by having the advertisement Twisty "supports" Mefferts. (even though it has been stated that no royalties are coming in) Can you really blame him? Twisty is "guilty by advertisement" (of what thugh, I'm not sure)

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
kastellorizo wrote:
It is more complex than that. If there is a forthcoming legal battle, everything said can play a vital role.

That was not his point, not the reason he presented. He didn't say "Not in a public forum", he explicitly said "Not in this forum that has such advertisement on the top".


*that* was the point, for the very reason you stated. If there is a legal action it will involve:
(a) the person who replied, (b) the person included in the advertisement on the top.

You seem to be more sharp regarding many incidents, but not this one.
Unless you felt offended that was refering to the forum people
(which I asure you, it is not the case).


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:01 pm 
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In case anyone is wondering, that spot of advertising is a dormant marker. It isn't there for any specific purpose anymore.

Sandy touched on that logo in his announcement when he resumed the work on the site a few weeks back. You can check that out there.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10914&hilit=advertising

One missing detail from that post is that there is no financial benefit the ad being there. And the reason that it is still there, is because it is. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:04 pm 
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I think that he may mean that he does not appreciate that knockoffs are advertised?

Because if no one posted all of these links, no one would know of them. Well, most would not.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:32 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
*that* was the point, for the very reason you stated. If there is a legal action it will involve:
(a) the person who replied, (b) the person included in the advertisement on the top.

Good thing I'm not a lawyer, I guess, cause I don't see how that connection matters. But if that's indeed how he meant it and if it does legally matter... To me it just sounded like "This forum supports Meffert, therefore I dislike it and won't grace it with my thoughts". There's also an equivalent thread or two on the speedsolving.com forum which doesn't have such an advertisement, so he could post there, right? Wouldn't that be much more convenient than answering many emails?


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:47 pm 
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Not taking into account previous arguments and opinions, (not that they are not important or I haven't looked at them) here is what I believe. Mefferts sees that despite efforts on both his and V-Cubes part to stop copying and stealing of designs, copies of the Void Cube and 7x7x7 (plus it now appears the 6x6x6) have been made and will be sold in the near future...if not already. Instead of simply giving up or trying in vain, through legal or other means, to stop what has already begun and will continue, Mefferts has been given the chance to sell these items himself. His consideration of the offer, I believe, has nothing to do with him wanting to rip off either of the original inventors nor does it indicate that he promotes or would like to promote criminals. By selling knockoff cubes on his site and giving some of the profit back to the original creators, Mefferts is giving back some of what would be lost if only the bootleg criminal dealers sold the cubes. He is hoping, I believe, that if anyone does choose to buy these knockoff cubes, that they will buy from him instead of the criminal dealers, which would still allow some profit to reach the original inventors of the cubes (if he does not sell them, every knockoff cube will be sold by an illegal dealer, and thus no profit whatsoever will reach the original inventors). I guarantee you that the 7% he mentions is calculated to make sure that he gains little from this process and that the original inventors gain the most they possibly can out of the situation. It is unfortunate that this appears to be one of the only solutions to the current problem which still benefits the original inventors.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:30 am 
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I am raging.
I have not approved.
I sent the mail of the protest to Mr. Meffert a little while ago.

I hope he discontinues sales of faked Void cube.

I stop having business talk with him.
The commercialization of Pyracue and MasterPyraminx is called off.

I am very melancholic.

(Because I am not good at English, details of this topic are not so understood. I cannot believe happening of these kind of things, ...there is such a lot of men who steal others' ideas...)

Katsuhiko Okamoto


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:02 am 
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As an example.

Many of you, at least the ones into speedcubing world, might know that I was in charge of the organization of the European RUbik's Championship 2008.

You might also know that there were many big companies and business involved, who sponsored the championship. One of them was Rubik's (through 7towns). The amount of money spent by some of these companies was HIGH.

Guess who appeared there, without an invitation, without paying a single Euro, and doing their business and promoting their products? (Yes, there were at least two other puzzle companies that were PAYING for the same reason there)

A mistake? Well, we politely ask them not to do it again. They could be there as a competitor/fan or whatever, but not with a commercial or business aim.

Guess who NEVER stopped doing this all over the weekend? Guess who almost caused a big dispute between some of the other sponsors? Guess who almost ruined the championship organization?

Of course, I'm talking about V-cubes, specially about Konstantinos.

So as you all can see, there's nothing personal but professional over my reaction. He's acted wrong, not one or twice. I complained, they never reacted. So they really deserve what's happenning now.

I'm, anyway, sorry for Okamoto and all the other people involved. But I really think that Meffert's aim is not to disturb of damage them. Nothing personal again, just a guess.

I hope that this cleans up a little bit my last post, and make you understand what I meant.

Regards,

David

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Life is like a Rubik's Cube.... it always has a solution.


Last edited by David Calvo on Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:42 am 
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David Calvo wrote:
As an example.

Many of you, at least the ones into speedcubing world, might know that I was in charge of the organization of the European RUbik's Championship 2008.

You might also know that there were many big companies and business involved, who sponsored the championship. One of them was Rubik's (through 7towns). The amount of money spent by some of these companies was HIGH.

Guess who appeared there, without an invitation, without paying a single Euro, and doing their business and promoting their products? (Yes, there were at least two other puzzle companies that were PAYING for the same reason there)

A mistake? Well, we politely ask them not to do it again. They could be there as a competitor/fan or whatever, but not with a commercial or business aim.

Guess who NEVER stopped doing this all over the weekend? Guess who almost caused a big dispute between some of the other sponsors? Guess who almost ruined the championship organization?

So as you all can see, there's nothing personal but professional over my reaction. He's acted wrong, not one or twice. I complained, they never reacted. So they really deserve what's happenning now.

I'm, anyway, sorry for Okamoto and all the other people involved. But I really think that Meffert's aim is not to disturb of damage them. Nothing personal again, just a guess.

I hope that this cleans up a little bit my last post, and make you understand what I meant.

Regards,

David


I'm sorry, "He acted wrong".... "they really deserve what's happenning now"

Who are you talking about? Verdes and V-cubes? or Meffert and his products?
Both are negatively affected by this, and both have products they offer....

Thanks David, I just wasn't sure who you were talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:44 am 
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Katsuhiko wrote:
I am raging.
I have not approved.
I sent the mail of the protest to Mr. Meffert a little while ago.

I hope he discontinues sales of faked Void cube.

I stop having business talk with him.
The commercialization of Pyracue and MasterPyraminx is called off.

This is disheartening to read. I am very sorry to hear this, Mr. Okamoto.
I am/was very looking forward to seeing these other puzzles become commercially available.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:49 am 
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chuckading wrote:

I'm sorry, "He acted wrong".... "they really deserve what's happenning now"

Who are you talking about? Verdes and V-cubes? or Meffert and his products?
Both are negatively affected by this, and both have products they offer....

Thanks David, I just wasn't sure who you were talking about.


I thought it was clear enough... I was talking about Konstantinos and V-cubes in general. I've edited my post to clarify that, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:56 am 
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flambore wrote:
Katsuhiko wrote:
I am raging.
I have not approved.
I sent the mail of the protest to Mr. Meffert a little while ago.

I hope he discontinues sales of faked Void cube.

I stop having business talk with him.
The commercialization of Pyracue and MasterPyraminx is called off.

This is disheartening to read. I am very sorry to hear this, Mr. Okamoto.
I am/was very looking forward to seeing these other puzzles become commercially available.



I'm sorry Mr. Okamoto for news of the "holey cube" and I agree 100% with you flambore, I can't wait to see the rest of Okamoto's puzzles. I anticipate the floppy cube being my favorite thing to twist!


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:56 am 
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David Calvo wrote:
As an example.

Many of you, at least the ones into speedcubing world, might know that I was in charge of the organization of the European RUbik's Championship 2008.

You might also know that there were many big companies and business involved, who sponsored the championship. One of them was Rubik's (through 7towns). The amount of money spent by some of these companies was HIGH.

Guess who appeared there, without an invitation, without paying a single Euro, and doing their business and promoting their products? (Yes, there were at least two other puzzle companies that were PAYING for the same reason there)

A mistake? Well, we politely ask them not to do it again. They could be there as a competitor/fan or whatever, but not with a commercial or business aim.

Guess who NEVER stopped doing this all over the weekend? Guess who almost caused a big dispute between some of the other sponsors? Guess who almost ruined the championship organization?

Of course, I'm talking about V-cubes, specially about Konstantinos.

So as you all can see, there's nothing personal but professional over my reaction. He's acted wrong, not one or twice. I complained, they never reacted. So they really deserve what's happenning now.

I'm, anyway, sorry for Okamoto and all the other people involved. But I really think that Meffert's aim is not to disturb of damage them. Nothing personal again, just a guess.

I hope that this cleans up a little bit my last post, and make you understand what I meant.

Regards,

David



I was told by Konstantinos, that the organization team would not allow him to pay. From what I understand, he was completely willing to do so, but you refused to allow him. If I was in his situation, then after that, I would definitely have just gone about my business.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:07 am 
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Dan, my intention is not to argue, so I have nothing else to say. I was just pointint out that Konstantinos is not as clear as he try to appear, specially after reading his "annonymous" comments.

And what he told you is not true. I was the organization leader, and it's the first time I hear what you say.

But really, I stop here. Just wanted to show my support to Meffert (pretty sure that some of the troubles with Mr Okamoto and company will be clear out soon)

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:36 am 
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Did anyone else notice that the mefferts website says 327 parts instead of 218 parts for the v-cube 7?

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-Jamo
2x2x2 PB: 3.45 sec
3x3x3 PB: 19.63sec (Average is about 32 though...)
4x4x4 PB: 2:04.95
5x5x5 PB 4:25.80
My other ones are to slow for me to care about right now...


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:55 am 
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Jamo wrote:
Did anyone else notice that the mefferts website says 327 parts instead of 218 parts for the v-cube 7?

You must not have read the first page...

Stefan Pochmann wrote:
Garrett wrote:
"Re engineered Mechanism", yea right, its clearly a direct copy.

But it has 109 more pieces! Meffert 327 vs Verdes 218.

- Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:10 am 
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The manufacturer has failed to explain any differences: see the ongoing discussions at http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=21858 where the manufacturer is fielding questions.

There's some rather damning video evidence that shows the mechanism is the same.

Those extra pieces might just be the stickers :D

EDIT: not ALL of them :)


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:09 pm 
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The survey has disappeared... link


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:21 pm 
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msemtd wrote:
The manufacturer has failed to explain any differences: see the ongoing discussions at http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=21858 where the manufacturer is fielding questions.

There's some rather damning video evidence that shows the mechanism is the same.

Those extra pieces might just be the stickers :D

EDIT: not ALL of them :)


I did a translation on the forum pages. They said they had applied for a patent due to improvements they had made (they didn't say what improvements. At least it didn't show up in the translation). Of course it's so similar to the original, a new patent wouldn't be valid IMO. They also said they are working on the V6, but are having problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:28 pm 
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It is quite a relief that the survey is gone....

However, as one of Meffèrts' oldest costumers (since 1982) I still
believe an explanation is mandatory. Just considering selling these
puzzles baffles me !!!


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:05 pm 
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I'm surprised no-one mentioned the one really glaring difference between the copy and the original: the copy has open, hollow corner-mechanism bits, just like the cheapest of regular cubes. Given the weight difference, which is apparently minimal, I suspect the V-7 corner mechs are also hollow, but they're covered over, at least.

They could probably easily get a (certainly Chinese) patent on that, which would be valid as such, it just wouldn't give them the right to actually produce the puzzle -- just the right to sell the right to make one with open corners to someone else.

kastellorizo wrote:
It seems to me you still live in the early 80s. And it also seems to me you support TOO MUCH this issue. Why?
(you have done way too many supporting for a reason beyond my mind).

...

And the horse you rode in on, too. I don't appreciate that kind of innuendo. If you want to accuse me of something, have the guts to come right out and say it.
Quote:
Today, many things have changed in many ways. Some parts may be more difficult, so may be easier. But those battles are now different, and the outcome can well be different too (and not *that* Pyrrhic).

Suggesting that giving up is the solution is more dangerous than what is actually happening here. Because you suggest, that everyone, every designer, every inventor, not only in this forum, but everywhere, will have to agree with such forced "proposals".
From what I know, patents *can* be enforced for importing AND exporting.

Why on earth would it be easier to stop exports from China than it was in the 80s? If anything, it's immensely more difficult. In the old days, you'd have shops or chains, or at least middlemen, ordering thousands or no less than hundreds of fake products at a time. These days, *everybody* is their own importer. If it's not DealExtreme, it's Focalprice. If it's not them, it's random Chinese out to make a buck on eBay. That's *not* physically possible to effectively police, at least not without stopping *all* private trade with China. Sure, you can get an injunction, no problem, and you can get customs to impound every package they find -- but that will always be a statistically insignificant sample. Actually, Nike or D&G or Prada can get customs to impound every fake of their products found -- I very much doubt any puzzle maker will be able to get their product into the shortlist. They might get impounded if they're opened by a customs operative who's really bored and actually goes to check the long list.
Quote:
To me it is clear what is happening here, while other may pretend to be "surprised". A new force is coming to the puzzle world, and someone or some big company is using such means to stop any competition.


Conspiracy theories are great and all, but you really have to say it's the CIA who's doing it to finance their spy ring in Mosc^H^H^H^H^H Shanghai.
Quote:
The conclusions are yours, but at the moment I have seen who really support the ethics part and who are not.

Your jumping to conclusions gauge could do with some work.
Quote:
(even though, the ethics part is also supported by a patent here!).

Because, in the end of the day, if everyone here agrees to this blackmail, it is like giving up their own past, present and future designs, to people who claim they want to "help".

When I was at the Nuremberg Toy Fair, at the spiel-cafe, the companies which copied others, were mentioned one-by-one and ridiculed, and all the legal actions against them were also mentioned. I sincerely hope Uwe will not be in that list next year. Because then, his mythical reputation will be gone forever. Or it seems, "fame was hated by many, but money by no one".


Anyone who opposes Mr Meffert's scheme for their work, I wish them all the best, and I will support them whole-heartedly in their efforts. Whether or not I think it's a smart thing to has NOTHING to do with that.


Last edited by JasperJ on Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:18 pm 
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JasperJ wrote:
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the one really glaring difference between the copy and the original: the copy has open, hollow corner-mechanism bits, just like the cheapest of regular cubes. Given the weight difference, which is apparently minimal, I suspect the V-7 corner mechs are also hollow, but they're covered over, at least.


Sorry, the V-cube corners are hollow and do not have a cap.

You would think that a puzzle that cost so much would have those caps as all decent 3x3 do.

Though, I think the cap-less corners only affect the looks of the puzzle especially the white V-cubes as dirt can build up inside its inner lip.
Having no cap has no effect on the cubes performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands
chuckading wrote:
JasperJ wrote:
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the one really glaring difference between the copy and the original: the copy has open, hollow corner-mechanism bits, just like the cheapest of regular cubes. Given the weight difference, which is apparently minimal, I suspect the V-7 corner mechs are also hollow, but they're covered over, at least.


Sorry, the V-cube corners are hollow and do not have a cap.

You would think that a puzzle that cost so much would have those caps as all decent 3x3 do.

Though, I think the cap-less corners only affect the looks of the puzzle especially the white V-cubes as dirt can build up inside its inner lip.
Having no cap has no effect on the cubes performance.


Sorry, I didn't mean the outside bits of the corners, I meant the large spherical-section parts on the other side. I *think* those are solid on the real v7.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:07 pm 
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chuckading wrote:
JasperJ wrote:
I'm surprised no-one mentioned the one really glaring difference between the copy and the original: the copy has open, hollow corner-mechanism bits, just like the cheapest of regular cubes. Given the weight difference, which is apparently minimal, I suspect the V-7 corner mechs are also hollow, but they're covered over, at least.


Sorry, the V-cube corners are hollow and do not have a cap.

You would think that a puzzle that cost so much would have those caps as all decent 3x3 do.

Though, I think the cap-less corners only affect the looks of the puzzle especially the white V-cubes as dirt can build up inside its inner lip.
Having no cap has no effect on the cubes performance.


5 of my corners are hollow and 3 are capped. Weird.


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