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 Post subject: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:39 pm 
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What is the difference between this puzzles?

DAYAN GEM VIIi Is now in HKNOWSTORE

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Last edited by juanan on Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem III vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Dayan Gem VII is now in hknowstore. The difference with Dayan Gem IV is that
you can turn the 2x2 square sides for the Dayan Gem VII, but not for the Dayan Gem IV.


Last edited by Martin on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:14 am 
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The Dayan Gem III and Gem IV both have the same outer appearance.
Martin is right, on the Gem IV you can't turn the squared faces. It features instead another cut about the hexagons that is deep.

But the Gem VII moves similar or basically the same as the Gem III, in case that was your actual question
However if you look closely you will find that the shape of the puzzles is infact different. The new Gem VII is not a truncated octahedron, like the Gem III and Gem IV were, it is instead a truncated rhombic dodecahedron. It has 12 hexagonal faces and 6 squared faces, whereas the other two Gems only have 8 hexagonal faces and 6 squared ones.
Or in other words: The old Gem III and Gem IV have 3 squared faces and 3 hexagonal faces around one hexagonal face.
The new Gem VII has 4 hexagonal and 2 squared faces around each hexagonal face.

The FTRD property is also why the new Gem can jumble. On the Gem III you can turn the hexagonal faces by only 120°. Now 60° are possible too.

Here is a comparison:
Gem VII
http://www.hknowstore.com/locale/en-US/ ... a808e69425

Gem III
http://www.hknowstore.com/locale/en-US/ ... 14e706e99e

Gem IV
http://www.hknowstore.com/locale/en-US/ ... f77208b7f9
(There is no turning pictures here and it seems that the Gem IV is sold out by now except for this fancy clear green version.)

edit: I found this on witeden
http://www.witeden.com/goods.php?id=422

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:01 am 
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alaskajoe wrote:
The new Gem VII is not a truncated octahedron, like the Gem III and Gem IV where, it is instead a truncated rhombic dodecahedron. It has 12 hexagonal faces and 6 squared faces, whereas the other two Gems only have 8 hexagonal faces and 6 squared ones.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, alaskajoe. When HKNowstore announced the preorder on Facebook yesterday, I placed my preorder with only a vague (possibly false) memory of seeing it in prototype form at some point. The other four members of this series are marvellous. The only problem is that when I get one out, I can't resist getting the others out! :shock:

Now... can someone please explain why they skipped from IV to VII in the DaYan Gem series? :mrgreen:

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Last edited by Pete the Geek on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
Now... can someone please explain why they skipped from IV to VII in the DaYan Gem series? :mrgreen:

I'm not sure, but I will guess it's either because this one was ready to release and they want to put a little bit more work in the others, or it's a sort of marketing technique, maybe they are hoping if they release the VII first, and people buy it, those people will feel the urge to buy the other ones? But it's more likely because they want to put more work in the 2 other.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:29 am 
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Martin wrote:
The difference with Dayan Gem IV is that
you can turn the 2x2 square sides for the Dayan Gem VII, but not for the Dayan Gem IV.
alaskajoe wrote:
Martin is right, on the Gem IV you can't turn the squared faces.

Hmmm. I think that either the above is incorrect, or else nowstore sent me the wrong puzzle. :lol: The square faces on the gem VII definitely don't turn. All I can think is that nowstore accidentally put the wrong picture on their gem VII page. (At least I hope that's it, otherwise I don't know what I've got :? )

I posted an update on my updates thread, but thought it pertinent to mention the unboxing/review video here as well.

Attachment:
File comment: dayan gem VII slightly jumbled
dayan gem 7.png
dayan gem 7.png [ 661.49 KiB | Viewed 3215 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:13 am 
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Quote:
I think that either the above is incorrect, or else nowstore sent me the wrong puzzle. :lol: The square faces on the gem VII definitely don't turn.

Oh thank you for the info. I didn't know the squared faces just can't turn. So my statement was incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:57 pm 
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No hknowstore didn't put the wrong picture. The "problem" is that the geometry of the dayan gem VII looks similar to the geometry of dayan gem
III and IV, but if you look closer its different.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Drake wrote:
No hknowstore didn't put the wrong picture. The "problem" is that the geometry of the dayan gem VII looks similar to the geometry of dayan gem
III and IV, but if you look closer its different.

I'll have to disagree with you here Drake about the picture they have. Below is the picture on nowstore's site for the gem VII.

Attachment:
File comment: allegedly the gem VII
picture.jpg
picture.jpg [ 32 KiB | Viewed 3075 times ]


Now, unless I'm seeing things, that picture is telling us that the square faces turn.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:37 pm 
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To make it simple:

Gem III = (face + corner) cube
Gem VII = (face + edge) cube

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:48 pm 
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RubixFreakGreg wrote:
To make it simple:

Gem III = (face + corner) cube
Gem VII = (face + edge) cube

I didn't see any edge turns in the video.


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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:16 pm 
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The hexagonal faces are the edges. It took some time to figure it out, but there are 12 hexagonal faces and each are in the place of what would be the edges of a cube, or the faces of a Rhombic dodecahedron


Attachments:
Shape.png
Shape.png [ 119.56 KiB | Viewed 2989 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:25 pm 
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eye2eye wrote:
RubixFreakGreg wrote:
To make it simple:

Gem III = (face + corner) cube
Gem VII = (face + edge) cube

I didn't see any edge turns in the video.


The Gem III is a truncated octahedron. The octahedron is the dual of a cube.

- Cube face ---> octahedron corner after dual ---> square face after truncation
- Cube corner ---> octahedron face after dual ---> hexagon face after truncation



The Gem VII is a rhombic dodecahedron, which can be made by attaching rhombi to edges of a cube. The Gem VII has 6 corners truncated - those where 4 face meet.

- Cube face ---> 4-face corner of rhombic dodecahedron ---> square face after truncation
- Cube edge ---> rhombic dodecahedron face ---> irregular hexagon face after truncation

However, as rline demonstrates in his video on the Gem VII the square faces do NOT turn. So the Gem VII only represents edge-turning cube geometry.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:13 pm 
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If the square face don't turn at the Dayan VII, what's the puzzle shown att hknowstor? And why is it cut here?


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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:41 pm 
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andand wrote:
If the square face don't turn at the Dayan VII, what's the puzzle shown att hknowstor? And why is it cut here?


That cut is there because the triangle can be separated from the hexagon face with only hexagon face turns. For example, label the visible hexagon faces in your picture F, L, and R. Turn F clockwise one step / jumbling turn, then turn L counterclockwise one step. The triangle and hexagon are now separated. EDIT: doesn't work.

Without jumbling, however, these two pieces can never be separated.

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Last edited by themathkid on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:08 am 
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themathkid wrote:
That cut is there because the triangle can be separated from the hexagon face with only hexagon face turns. For example, label the visible hexagon faces in your picture F, L, and R. Turn F clockwise one step / jumbling turn, then turn L counterclockwise one step. The triangle and hexagon are now separated. Without jumbling, however, these two pieces can never be separated.

That's very cool! I hadn't thought my way that far along. So given that piece of information, would you conclude that a "decent" scramble therefore must include jumbling?

andand wrote:
If the square face don't turn at the Dayan VII, what's the puzzle shown att hknowstor?

I don't know! :lol: But I wish someone with some sort of knowledge about it would chime in. As I said, either I've been sent some different puzzle, or else the picture's wrong. My guess is the wrong picture...

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:39 am 
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rline wrote:
That's very cool! I hadn't thought my way that far along. So given that piece of information, would you conclude that a "decent" scramble therefore must include jumbling?


Well now that I realize it's based on the geometry of the edge-turning cube, I'm thinking about how the pieces relative to the curvy copter:

1. Hexagon centers on Gem VII = edge centers on Curvy Copter
2. Triangles at a hexagon-hexagon edge on Gem VII = pedals on Curvy Copter
3. Triangles at a hexagon-square edge on Gem VII = new piece
4. Corners where 3 hexagons meet on Gem VII = corners on Curvy Copter
5. Corners where 2 hexagons + 1 square meet on Gem VII = new piece

Of course, we already discussed piece type 3: it is effectively bandaged to piece type 1 without jumbling. I believe piece types 2 and 5 effectively become bandaged without jumbling as well. That is, the triangle and adjacent square-corner can never be separated without jumbling. This would make the square faces the pedals, too, making it much easier to visualize the connection to the Curvy Copter. Six faces of the Curvy Copter with 4 pedals ---> 6 square faces on Gem VII with 4 corners.

So basically, without jumbling the Gem VII is completely identical to the Curvy Copter. With jumbling, you introduce 2 new piece types not present on the Curvy Copter. I believe these new pieces might be related to TomZ's Curvy Copter II but I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:58 am 
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themathkid wrote:
eye2eye wrote:
RubixFreakGreg wrote:
To make it simple:

Gem III = (face + corner) cube
Gem VII = (face + edge) cube

I didn't see any edge turns in the video.

However, as rline demonstrates in his video on the Gem VII the square faces do NOT turn. So the Gem VII only represents edge-turning cube geometry.

Sorry! I was being stupid. The way I read it cube was just being thrown out there as a general term. I wasn't think about duality. So yes it is edge turning, but not face turning. Sorry again.


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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:31 am 
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Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but what if the version of the Gem VII pictured is the official one, and the one that can't do square face turns is a defective version that accidentally got released? I mean, the square faces HAVE to turn, it looks that it should.


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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:37 am 
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Crazy56U wrote:
Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but what if the version of the Gem VII pictured is the official one, and the one that can't do square face turns is a defective version that accidentally got released? I mean, the square faces HAVE to turn, it looks that it should.

Nah, I don't think you're being paranoid. I've wondered the same thing. My only thought is that it's a pretty cool defective version, with jumbling and all!

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:54 am 
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themathkid wrote:
That cut is there because the triangle can be separated from the hexagon face with only hexagon face turns. For example, label the visible hexagon faces in your picture F, L, and R. Turn F clockwise one step / jumbling turn, then turn L counterclockwise one step. The triangle and hexagon are now separated. Without jumbling, however, these two pieces can never be separated.



Can anyone demonstrate this with the actual puzzle? I cant visualise this.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:26 am 
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rubikcollector123 wrote:
themathkid wrote:
That cut is there because the triangle can be separated from the hexagon face with only hexagon face turns. For example, label the visible hexagon faces in your picture F, L, and R. Turn F clockwise one step / jumbling turn, then turn L counterclockwise one step. The triangle and hexagon are now separated. Without jumbling, however, these two pieces can never be separated.


Can anyone demonstrate this with the actual puzzle? I cant visualise this.


Well now I've bamboozled myself. :oops: I followed along and "did" what themathkid suggested earlier, but now that I've gone to go make a 10 second video showing it, I can't make it happen. In fact I'm now concluding that it's not possible. The only possible jumbling moves that I can see are the ones I showed in the video.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:35 am 
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That actually makes more sense. The 2 triangles and the hexagon make rhombus, which is what the puzzle is based on (rhombic dodecahedron)

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:27 am 
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rline wrote:
Well now I've bamboozled myself. :oops: I followed along and "did" what themathkid suggested earlier, but now that I've gone to go make a 10 second video showing it, I can't make it happen. In fact I'm now concluding that it's not possible. The only possible jumbling moves that I can see are the ones I showed in the video.


After watching your video again, it's obvious that you can't do what I suggested. Hmmmm. This is a bit of a mystery, isn't it? Maybe we need more than just a simple turn to activate that cut. Here's an idea. There are two types of corners - regular corners [3-hexagons meet] and "square corners" [2 hexagons and 1 square meet]. For the triangle in question, maybe if you replaced the adjacent square corners with 2 regular corners then the block [corner / triangle / corner] can be separated from the hexagon center?? Let me see if I can clarify this:

Use the same image as above with F, L and R faces as before. Let one turn be a 60-degree step. It's not actually 60 degrees since it's an irregular hexagon, but I think you'll understand what I mean.

1. Turn LR'. Now the corners adjacent to our "problem" triangle are regular corners instead of square.
2. Perform FL'

If it works, the triangle piece will be separated from the hexagon. I can't try it myself since I don't have the puzzle [though I did order mine just now because of this conversation]. Try it out and let us know!

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:05 pm 
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Last edited by Pete the Geek on Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:09 pm 
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To those who have this puzzle, when you take it apart, do the pieces of the square face and triangle alone have a circular mechanism shape inside? If so, then it should turn, right?

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
.

Pete, you removed the video link but I saw it before you did. I think the fact that your puzzle popped (thanks for the disassembly video, BTW!) proves that what you achieved was not supposed to happen :lol: I know exactly what you were doing because I "felt" those pieces "wanting" to go, but they just don't.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:40 pm 
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rline wrote:
Pete the Geek wrote:
.

Pete, you removed the video link but I saw it before you did. I think the fact that your puzzle popped (thanks for the disassembly video, BTW!) proves that what you achieved was not supposed to happen :lol: I know exactly what you were doing because I "felt" those pieces "wanting" to go, but they just don't.
Yes there was an amusing pop. I have to edit my video because I missed something. I will put it back up this evening.

The square faces on the DaYan Gem VII DO turn:
Attachment:
DaYan-Gem-VII-Square-Face-Turn_sm.png
DaYan-Gem-VII-Square-Face-Turn_sm.png [ 268.19 KiB | Viewed 2703 times ]


They are VERY stiff. I removed the centre and edge and lubricated the sliding surface between these two pieces (the little triangle above the square face):
Attachment:
Gem-Triangle-Comp_sm.png
Gem-Triangle-Comp_sm.png [ 145.35 KiB | Viewed 2703 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
The square faces on the DaYan Gem VII DO turn
Attachment:
DaYan-Gem-VII-Square-Face-Turn_sm.png


They are VERY stiff.

:shock:

Right you are! Wrong I was!

However, I am still going on record to say that while the square faces are supposed to turn, that jumbling-type move which caused your pop is NOT supposed to happen. I could of course be wrong on this, but even with a square face turning, when trying to execute that move, it's obvious that all the forces of nature are against it.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:01 pm 
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rline wrote:
However, I am still going on record to say that while the square faces are supposed to turn, that jumbling-type move which caused your pop is NOT supposed to happen. I could of course be wrong on this, but even with a square face turning, when trying to execute that move, it's obvious that all the forces of nature are against it.
:mrgreen: I'm splicing in a supplement to my video and will repost it. I think you're right, but now that I have tightened the puzzle, I want to try that square face edge jumbling again under controlled conditions. Like wearing safety goggles.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:43 pm 
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The square faces cannot jumble with the hexagons, neither vice versa.

Examine puzzles like the helicopter 2x2x2 or copter 3x3x3, these puzzles have the same axis system as the gem VII,since the hexagons correspond to the edges of a cube and the squares correspond to the faces of a cube.

And the helicopter 2x2x2 or copter 3x3x3 do not exhibit additional jumbling moves involving face turns and edge turns, so I think it is wise to say the gem VII will not as well.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:56 pm 
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I've posted my DaYan VII unboxing video and address the jumbling and turning of the square faces (which I initially got wrong and corrected later in the video). If you start watching around 10:10 you will see me try to separate the square face edge using jumbling with shocking and possibly hilarious :mrgreen: results. One thing I didn't mention in the video is that the Gem VII is a bit larger than the previous Gems.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:41 am 
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Sometimes it is an advantage being late :lol:
Yesterday, I had received my Gem VII (surprisingly I'm still waiting for two orders that I had pre-ordered much earlier.)
I tried turning the square faces and was immediately convinced that rline was right: those can never be turned.

What a surprise to see this morning Pete's post and video. Thanks Pete :)

BTW, if we ever start a solving thread, I propose to use the Helicopter notation.
Image

A non-jumbling solve should be not very special. So far, I'm looking for useful sequences like the pure 3 cycle of edges shown in my picture. I think solving it is closer to the Helicopter than to the Curvy Copter, because you can see the centre of rotation of a hex face, but it has no visible orientation. Curvy and Helicopter are close, anyway.

The squares turn really stiff, but I'll try to break the puzzle in as it is, just with a bit of silicone spray.

EDIT: I decided to break it in by scrambling (including jumbling) and solving.
Here are some pictures:
Image space Image space Image
Image
As you can see I had the same parity as on the Gem III.

Turning is still stiff!!!

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:40 am 
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Hi Konrad

At first I was wondering why you chose the square faces for U,D,L,R,F,B but on reflection I'm supposing it's because there are 6 of them. I'm a slow learner. (I also supposed we'd be turning hex faces more than square, but now that the squares turn, maybe not).

Speaking of turning squares, I got around to making a followup video where I end up showing the squares turning better. Not magnificently, but better. Probably good enough to play with.

(I should make it clear that it seems that when you get the puzzle, the square faces WILL NOT turn. You will need to lube them somehow to make them turn. This is obviously not ideal and I'd go so far as to say the puzzle is "not finished".)

I didn't ever get the gem 3 so apart from the gem 4, this is the only other gem puzzle I have. Now I can start thinking about solving it.

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Last edited by rline on Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dayan gem VII vs dayan gem IV
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:53 am 
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Maybe Oskar could make a fudged version where the square-hexagon jumbling move is legal?

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